Rough running/stumbling TSIO360GB

[Cruzjessew]

Hi everyone,

 

I have an 231 M20k TSIO360, just installed a JPI 830 with fuel flow transducer. The engine sat for about 6 weeks while hoses got ordered from Herber, upon start up the engine runs rough and stumbles. It will idle just fine but anything above 1000 rpm the engine will run rough and stumble. Unless primer is hit, then everything smoothes out for a few seconds. If the mixture is leaned at all the engine will quit. Only ran it for 2-3 mins since it was the end of day, will try again tomorrow and the mechanic will remove the flow sensor see if things run smooth with out it. The JPI showed a 4-5GPH, EGTs lower on Clyn 5&6. 

 

Any ideas? I have attached a photo bellow. 

[philiplane]

90 degree fittings at or near the transducer are a no no. The manuals are very specific about straight runs through the transducer. 

[carusoam]

Let’s circle the device in question...

Then compare how these get mounted currently at airplane factories...

Then cover the quality of the data...

1) +1 for straight lines... the data from 90° angles will be faulty at various points of operation (FF)...

2) Silicone insulation... fire-proofing is good like any fuel line in the neighborhood...

3)Side benefit of silicone insulation... if you are familiar with hot starts... heating a giant metal block above the vaporization temp of 100LL... is going to take a long time before getting the fuel system cooled enough to start...

4) Planes built in the mid 90s put the sensor back on the fire wall... wrapped in silicone...

5) Putting the FF sensor above the cylinders is what you do when you have run out of options...

6) Also look for the this end up and flow arrow to verify if the block is oriented properly... often the wires are coming out the top... depending on who built the sensor...

7) My IO550 easily runs on 4gph while idling cold... 2gph when leaned...

8) It sounds like you may be getting bad data with that set-up... if it has an air bubble stuck in it, the number you see is counting the air bubble over and over again and not delivering fuel...

9) Start with verifying the FF compared to what the engine is really getting...

10) Let’s get a big picture view of what is going on with the engine... grab the data, post it in Savvy, click the share button... copy link here... 

It might be something completely different...

 

Kinda looks like the mechanic was not a plumber...  

Expect to follow the installation instructions closely on this device... they are sensitive to orientation and plumbing... they can easily give misleading info at one FF and right on for another FF...

He gets an A for looks... cause it looks nice...

These sensors are easily understood by some engineers... and some mechanics... but probably not all...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

There is also a Continental SB to removed the priming solenoid.  Might just as well do that one when you get new hoses.

Clarence

[Cruzjessew]

@philiplane @carusoam @M20Doc

 

Thank you for all the insight,

I will make sure we have strait fittings in and out and consider firewall mounting since there is allot of heat/vibration in the current placing. Will see how it runs with the flow sensor removed, to make sure the issue is actually related to the flow sensor. Also just read the SB19-01 thanks. 

Jesse 

[kortopates]

Mooney provides some brackets for mounting the transducer in front out of the heat and with minimal bends. Not mandatory, but sure helps avoid problems by guiding you with a known proven solution. Here is the figure from the K IPC:

Edited December 17, 2020 by kortopates

[Phil EF]

Ditto on dumping the primer solenoid. Your starts will be smoother and better. 
On my GB, the transducer is mounted a couple inches above the fuel pump on a 45, Away from the heat and makes a smooth transition to the flow divider without hardly any direction changes. 

[Cruzjessew]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the help, i did not know about the SB and sure thing the primer valve is leaking fuel. We will be removing it per the SB. Does anyone have a photo of their transducer mount, this is an additional flow sensor for the JPI engine monitor. 

Jesse Cruz 

[DanM20C]

I thought all 231's came equipped with a factory fuel flow.  Am I mistaken?

If I am not you should have a transducer mounted just above the fuel pump, shown above in Paul's diagram.  If you don't have one there that is where you should mount this one.  

Glad you are performing the SB, the diverter valve is a overly complicated fix to a problem that never existed. 

Cheers,

Dan

[Cruzjessew]

@danM20c Hey Dan, Yes you are correct. All turbo mooneys have a factory fuel flow. I am adding a second for the installation of a JPI 830 engine monitor, because its not a primary instrument i have to keep the factory and add a second. 

 

Jesse

[kortopates]

@danM20c Hey Dan, Yes you are correct. All turbo mooneys have a factory fuel flow. I am adding a second for the installation of a JPI 830 engine monitor, because its not a primary instrument i have to keep the factory and add a second. 
 
Jesse

You don’t need two! the factory one can be wired in parallel to your JPI. Having two in series would be problematic at best.


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[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Cruzjessew said:

@danM20c Hey Dan, Yes you are correct. All turbo mooneys have a factory fuel flow. I am adding a second for the installation of a JPI 830 engine monitor, because its not a primary instrument i have to keep the factory and add a second. 

 

Jesse

I’ve never heard of adding a second transducer?  Can’t your JPI share the signal from the OEM fuel flow?

Clarence

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

You don’t need two! the factory one can be wired in parallel to your JPI. Having two in series would be problematic at best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great minds think alike!

[carusoam]

Bingo..!

1) Fuel leaking out of a fuel system somewhere... often times, turns into air leaking into the same device... when the engine is running...

2) You can test for air leaking in by collecting fuel in a jar, downstream... (save the effort, fix the leak)

3) There must be a law of nature... limiting the number of really intelligent people in a single room at any one time... it is really cool to have the input of Doc and Paul! 

4) One FF sensor should be enough... it generates a square signal that can be read by multiple displays...

5) adding multiple FF sensors adds many failure points and flow restrictions that are unappreciated...

 

PP thoughts only, not one of the limited people in any room...  

Best regards,

-a-