Insurance creep

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, philip_g said:

I didn't look, don't have the patience. He said you'd have to ask and negotiate it and he uses a smaller company willing to assume the risk, it sounded like a hassle.

 

So after that I found an archer for sale here. The selection in HI is such that whatever is for sale you buy, so here we go. Insurance won't accept time in a pa28-161 or p28r 201 for time in type in a pa28-181. Insanity. Now if I want to buy a 180hp 172 and I only have 160hp 172 time that doesn't count either? Or m20c to m20e?

 

I don't love the archer but it's available and I don't have to spend 25k to ferry it out.

Sounds odd. When I bought my F I’d never even flown one but insurance accepted my m20c time as equivalent. 
 

-Robert 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Sounds odd. When I bought my F I’d never even flown one but insurance accepted my m20c time as equivalent. 
 

-Robert 

Me too; I only had M20B time...no problem with having never flown an F.

[carusoam]

C to R... Transition Training covered the insurance requirement...

Had about a decade, and 1000 hours of C time...

First year cost an extra AMU as usual...

Best regards,

-a-

[larrynimmo]

Gear ups and accidents are always a high cost for insurance companies...Mooneys have always had greater exposure than non Retract...my guess though is that insurance companies have somewhat “over reacted” and rates should now stabilize rather than spiraling out of control again.   However...I don’t see the insurance becoming competitive again as there are now so few insurers out there....get used to paying what you pay or get out of flying...

[Parker_Woodruff]

It's hit me this year  in a little different fashion.

Like @mike_elliottI have a fairly customized CFI Non-owned policy on which the renewal was just quoted much higher in price even with significantly reduced hull coverage limits.  Based on what I flew this past year, I'm looking at about $40/revenue hour for insurance costs.  Do I trim coverage further to very low limits or stop instructing all together?

Trimming the limit means I'll have to ask for a Waiver of Subrogation for some higher value aircraft.  I prefer to just "get in and go" without hassling the owner & waiting for insurance certificates, but maybe that's a convenience I can no longer offer.  However, getting the AI/WOS doesn't buy me the professional liability coverage after the fact...

On a positive note, the Errors and Omissions Insurance for the agency went down a tiny amount even while getting a policy with better coverage.

[Nstarbf]

Just got a letter yesterday from my insurance company stating they will not be renewing the policy in February.

 

[Mooneymite]

58 minutes ago, Nstarbf said:

Just got a letter yesterday from my insurance company stating they will not be renewing the policy in February.

 

Any reason(s) given?

[Missile=Awesome]

I got a “similar letter” that ended up being generic and NOT being about a policy cancellation.  Hope that is bf’s end result too.

[Yetti]

I know it's not geared this way because everyone wants their hand in the pie.   But why can't I just throw all the cars houses, plane and boats in the same pool and insure or at least have a liability policy for me for when I wack a citation with a wing tip or bap a super yacht with the Whaler.

[Nstarbf]

No reason was given.  It was a generic letter.

I went through Falcon and the final company ended up being XL.  

They may just want to get out of the market.

[RobertGary1]

Certainly some are leaving the market.  Your broker should have some insider info though. My broker plays a lot of golf with the various underwriters and assume most do. 
 

-Robert 

[carusoam]

NStar, have you checked in with Parker? @Parker_Woodruff

Parker has been around for a while, supplying insurance to Mooney pilots...

Direct personal contact... no generic letters that I’m aware of... great industry knowledge... helpful when the insurance companies can be really strange...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Parker_Woodruff]

21 hours ago, Nstarbf said:

No reason was given.  It was a generic letter.

I went through Falcon and the final company ended up being XL.  

They may just want to get out of the market.

XL left personal piston GA last spring. So all their remaining policies are near expiration. Looks like your agent will need to find a new carrier for you. 

[Nstarbf]

That would make a lot of sense as last year when I renewed the agent I was working with at falcon was surprised they even responded to her rfq; and how low the quote was.  I almost didn't go with them because the quote was in the "too good to be true" range what with me being new to mooneys and not having a lot of hours in make and model.  Sounds like I got in on the tail end of an initiative on XL's part to grab more of the GA market.  In any event I have a couple of months before my current policy expires to find new insurance.

[Stan]

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.

As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.

Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????

 

 

[Skates97]

I just renewed and went from Falcon to @Parker_Woodruff this year. In terms of percentages of change this is what I have seen in the four years I have had our plane. The first year in 2016 I had less than 60 hours total time and no retract. During that first year I flew 140 hours in the Mooney so there was a nice drop.

2017 renewal - dropped 34.10%
2018 renewal - increase 6.47%
2019 renewal - increase 11.31%

With multiple upgrades to the plane I have increased the hull coverage, but if I had kept the hull coverage the same the renewal quote for 2020 would have been an increase of 25.78% in premium. No claims, flying 100+ hours a year. No instrument rating, but it will be completed next Spring.
 

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, Stan said:

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.

As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.

Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????

 

 

Stan, looks like you have a few more Mooney years in you...

The real age discrimination is hitting the MSer Octogenarians the hardest... 

@Parker_Woodruff I invite Parker each time I mention this issue...

Parker is on the inside... he will be the first to come up with ideas on how to handle this goofy case of ageism...

PP thoughts only not an age statistician...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

15 hours ago, Stan said:

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.

As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.

Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????

 

 

Some brokers recommend senior pilots to take higher quotes to stay with companies that are willing to stay with seniors. Apparently there are less companies willing to write new policies as you get older.

 

-Robert

[ArtVandelay]

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.
As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.
Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????
 
 

What’s the hull value?

I wonder if there are steps in the rates? Like a $100000 hull insured at 1% but a $99999 hull is 0.8%.

If there is I would consider dropping hull value below a threshold of higher rates.

[amillet]

23 hours ago, Stan said:

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.

As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.

Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????

 

 

I emailed my renewal application to Falcon yesterday for policy (USAIG for 20 years) expiring 1/25/21. I will turn 70 in April. I’ll report back with the quote. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

6 hours ago, amillet said:

I emailed my renewal application to Falcon yesterday for policy (USAIG for 20 years) expiring 1/25/21. I will turn 70 in April. I’ll report back with the quote. 

Stay with USAIG

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:30 AM, Stan said:

I might as well throw my quote in here too.  Got the email from Global and received a quote from my broker yesterday.

As I am 71 I expected an increase, but $2284.00?  Since 2018 there have been step increases totaling $1045.00.

Looks like this might be the last year for the Mooney????

 

 

One thing I didn’t mention on the phone - your rate is maybe $200-300 higher than what I would get someone with the exact same flight experience except at age 60. 
 

Not all of it is age, a lot of it is the market itself (which, unfortunately, needed a correction)

In other words, $1200/yr was unsustainable for what they were insuring. 

[Browncbr1]

My renewal from global went up almost 30%, so I switched to QBE for a smaller increase of 15%...  no changes in hull, coverage, or currency.  Prior year went up 30% with global, but it was the same premium as an alternative, but included saavy..   this year they increased another 30% and discontinued saavy.   So, QBE it is. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Browncbr1

[Greg Ellis]

I have been using the same guy for my insurance needs on my plane for 15 years since owning the airplane.  He has always been good and has gotten me good rates.  I sent him the renewal information and he wrote me back saying the company insuring me now have a $2500 minimum premium.  This is after many years of me paying around $600 a year premium.  So he is shopping out to other companies.  Quite the jump from $600 a year to requiring $2500 a year premium.

If I don't get good results I may be talking to Parker though.  I am all about loyalty so I am giving this guy a chance to find me a good rate since I have been with him so long and he has always done right by me.

[RobertGary1]

58 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

 

If I don't get good results I may be talking to Parker though.  I am all about loyalty so I am giving this guy a chance to find me a good rate since I have been with him so long and he has always done right by me.

Assuming your broken is competent, he will quote the exact same few underwriters that Parker can. They all use the same quote computer. Broker's can make a difference when an underwriter doesn't want to write a policy for some reason or want more restrictions on the policy (i.e. negotiating minimum times, etc)

 

-Robert