newbie.....down is present, no feathers yet!

[richc22a]

I am... after a 20 yr + delay going for my ppl. I am considering as my first plane, a Mooney. Actually, considering is not accurate, I am shopping for a 'used' low time smoh Mooney. My question is, oxygen or not? I work all over the US, and the Mooney will be a 'vehicle' to free me up as far as going where, when I want when feasible (encompasses weather, etc). As of this post I am 900+ nautical miles from the dog, and children, my thought is a higher altitude would yield less resistance, better cruise???

[Shadrach]

What's your location? Are you crossing The Rockies on these 900nm trips? I don't keep oxygen on board as a matter of practice. I am perfectly comfortable cruising between 4,500 and 12,500 for normal operations. Normally aspirated Mooneys seem to be in their sweet spot between 7,500 and 11,500. Even at MGW climb rates are good enough to make 12,500 to 15'500 very usable in a 200hp machine and they will go higher. The problem is having the performance to counter mother-nature at those altitudes. In The Rockies, down drafts can exceed the climb rate of a turbo twin at times; an NA mooney really struggle in that type of situation.

[Jimhamilton]

First I would like to say welcome. The mooney is the best single money can buy for speed and economy. The Mooney is also a complex aircraft that is a challenge for all pilots. I fly a Boeing 737 for a living and the Mooney (M20K...231) is more complex to fly. In the 737 most systems are automated to the point they are dumbed down. For instance, the engines on a 737 are almost impossible to hurt. The computers protect the engines from dumb pilot errors. With the Mooney this is not the case. The pilot needs to manage the engine in all flight phases for temperature, mixture, fuel flow etc. There is very little protections afforded to the Mooney pilot by onboard computer protection. My point is this. You are now just starting to learn how to fly. Your pick for an aircraft has challenges to even the best pilot. Please get the best training possible and get as much time in your Mooney with your instructor as possible. Dedicate yourself to it and fly two to three times each week. Your Mooney is a challenge in it self, add to it very long cross country legs and you will add weather, mountains, winds, cold and heat etc. You have a lot to chew on here, but you can do it. Dedicate yourself. God bless, Jim Hamilton

[Skywarrior]

Rich -

To answer your stated question - yes, get oxygen.

It's not that expensive to bring aboard a portable O2 bottle or two.

Your unstated question is: Should I even be trying to start right off with a Mooney?

My answer is... I don't know. I also had a 20+ year layoff after first flying (but hey, my daughter passed the Bar!). I started back up in a Mooney Bravo, and had a hell of a time learning to fly that beast. I didn't get comfortable until I had put at least 45 hours on it.

But now, it feels like a well-behaved, but powerful, steed.

My personal feeling is that you may well want to consider a 231, a 252, or a Bravo. If you're regularly traveling 900 miles one way, you're gonna want to be doing ~ 200 kts GS. With LR tanks, you could do it non-stop. Prices are way down... but they won't stay there indefinitely.

Good luck. You've come to the right place - there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here.

Chuck M.

Postscript: You'll need an Instrument Rating to assure making those long trips.

[richc22a]

Thanks for the responses. I have made it a point to study Mooney crashes, with other losses. The Mooney comes across as efficient with an edge to it's slipperiness that requires attention at all times. It reminds me of sports car that I had that was notorious for biting you if you did not stay ahead of it... hopefully within 3-4 months I can part of the 'Mooney Clan"... I had not considered a 737...might be easier to fly, but there a couple of drawbacks.....runway size needed...fuel prices....long walk to the can..

[johnggreen]

richc22a,

Rich,

I am no newbie.  Have had the privilege of flying all my life and being able to use an airplane in my business since day one.  There is no perfect airplane; all have mission parameters.  

Your first "mission" is to become a safe pilot.  Stick and rudder skills are no more and perhaps less important than learning the "environment" of flying and judgement.  You are going to make mistakes in spite of the best instruction and your best intentions.  Hopefully those mistakes will become only the gist for hangar talk, not eulogies.

To accomplish this first "mission" you need an airplane that will accomodate as many mistakes as possible; that is not a Mooney.

Buy a 172 and become a pilot.  Get some tail wheel instruction early so you learn to use your feet.  Get an instrument rating, get some spin instruction, get some experience mis-judging weather, and then, if it fits your "mission", buy a Mooney.  In the meantime, the 172 is about as easy to buy and sell as any airplane imaginable and every mechanic knows it from spinner to tail cone.  The Skylane would be my second choice and is a legitimate cross country airplane.

If a Mooney is your dream, great!  Dreaming is half the fun, but get there safely and with as few set-backs as possible.

Have a good trip my friend.  it will be one of the best life has to offer.

JG

CFII

[ToddDPT]

I have to agree with John on this one.  We are talking about training here.  How much do we beat up airplanes during our training?  Engine out procedures, go arounds, hard landings, etc. are all hard on the airplanes.  We sit on this site discussing fuel leaks caused by hard landings so I would expect some issues with your Mooney if you are training with it.  I would not want to have my Mooney beat up like that.  

I would much prefer to rent during training, or at least some of the training, and let someone else's plane take the abuses.  I had about 120 hours, mostly in a Cherokee 180, some in a 172 before purchasing my Mooney.  The Mooney is different and has a steep learning curve and I can not say that I would want to have learned in THIS plane.  Just think soloing for the first time, stressed and coming into land.  Is the gear down?  Prop set for go around?  Why would you even want to have all this complexity when you are learning?  I wouldn't, and I didn't.  Maybe I'm just too simple of a person.

Get some hours in a 172.  Rent it and beat up someone else's plane.  I had a friend train in a rented 172 then when he was comfortable with landing, etc., in the middle of his training transitioned to a 182.  You get increased speed without some of the complexity the Mooney offers.  It seemed like a logical transition.  JMHO

[rbridges]

Quote: ToddDPT

I would much prefer to rent during training, or at least some of the training, and let someone else's plane take the abuses.  I had about 120 hours, mostly in a Cherokee 180, some in a 172 before purchasing my Mooney.   

that's exactly what I did.  I must admit, I had some pretty @#$! landings in the 172.  I'm still not great, but I'm light years ahead of my 172 days.  With the stiffer landing gear, it would have been very hard on the mooney.  I agree, bang someone's rental up and not your personal plane.

[TonyPynes]

At 55 I learned to fly late in the game. I started out with a FADEC controlled simple Liberty XL2 to get my PPL. Being older or dumber I took longer than most younger students. So I am not an exceptional pilot by any stretch of the imagination.

I then got signed off for complex in an Arrow 200R. It was the first mixture, prop and gear I had to deal with as the Liberty was only a Throttle lever and a stick. Focus was on flying only. Once in the Arrow it was like being in a totally different machine and while I was ready for sign off after 7 hours I insisted on taking more instruction until I felt comfortable.

After about 30 hours in the Arrow I bought my 1970 M20F with a lot of speed mods, low time engine and engine enhancements with a NASCAR treatment. Whatever that gets me I dont know.

Anyway, the point being is I am probably somewhere in the middle of the pack on skill and on the low end on experience and have transitioned to a Mooney successfully. I also knew it was going to be a Mooney before I had taken many lessons at all. It logically made sense for me.

Going from the Liberty trainer to the Arrow was the biggest leap for me. I felt like I had never flown a plane before after first flying the Arrow and the complexity of mixture, prop, gear, etc was pretty overwhelming and at times screwed with my normally good flying skills I had learned. I made lots of dumb mistakes that I am glad it was in a rental and not my Mooney.

Once in my Mooney I spent 5 hours with an instructor and 5 hours solo cross country home. Landing was never an issue and has never been an issue for me. Be at the right numbers over the threshold for what is happening around you, be a good pilot first, and it works. The biggest difference for me was slowing down from 11500 at full throttle to land.

The Arrow, you pull back the throttle and she starts dropping and slowing down. The Mooney laughs at you and says so what?

You will at first wonder if it will ever slow down and get down. But it will come with time.

The point being that there are those that say do all your training in a rental and those that bought Mooneys to train in. Both are doable. But new pilots beat the heck out of airplanes and the one thing I would say to my instructor after a particularly difficult flight the most was, "And that is why you never by a trainer."

On the other hand I wish all my hours were in my Mooney because I would be better at flying it. So that is an advantage.

But some of those early landings would have definitely caused the Mooney tanks to start leaking.

The Liberty was also unforgiving on landing. It is a light sensitive aircraft but it has enough drag to help you get past a balloon and settle easily.  A Mooney will not so easily forgive you.

If I had to do over I would probably do much the same. I know I learned to be a pilot in the little Liberty, the Arrow was great to learn complex in a lumbering, forgiving bird.

But the prize, the reason I got my lesson in the first place, the mission I dreamed of, was found in the Mooney. She is a serious airplane that expects a serious and capable driver. I am still learning and I am extra cautious where my more experienced friends in Dakotas and Cessnas would not be. But as someone on this site's tag line says, A man has got to know his limits. And I know as a new pilot, new Mooney, there are things I am allowed to do I will not yet do.

As a new pilot you are already starting to make PIC decisions and that is a good thing. My only advice is to let the new pilot in you beat the hell out of someone elses plane. When you are a good pilot go get your prize.

[Jeff_S]

I'm in agreement with the general posts about getting your feathers in something less challenging than a Mooney. We're all assuming that you have little flying experience, based on your post...I presume that's the case. I'll take another angle as well, and ask if the 900 mile trip is a routine trip for you or longer than normal. In the kind of plane it sounds like you're considering, even a 900 mile trip is going to take about 6 hours to complete on average (remember, headwinds two-thirds of the time) so you have to ask if you are willing to take on the responsibilities of a PIC for that length of time after a regular day dealing with business issues.

I can tell you that for me personally, the idea of strapping on all the responsibilities of PIC for six hours in a Mooney after a generally rugged business day is a non-starter. We know nothing of your situation of course. If your travel is flexible or generally shorter then my points may be meaningless. But while I love flying my J, I wouldn't consider trying to regularly use it for business trips longer than about 3 hours, just to manage the fatigue etc.  That's just me.

[Jimhamilton]

Quote: richc22a

Thanks for the responses. I have made it a point to study Mooney crashes, with other losses. The Mooney comes across as efficient with an edge to it's slipperiness that requires attention at all times. It reminds me of sports car that I had that was notorious for biting you if you did not stay ahead of it... hopefully within 3-4 months I can part of the 'Mooney Clan"... I had not considered a 737...might be easier to fly, but there a couple of drawbacks.....runway size needed...fuel prices....long walk to the can..

[rbridges]

another point.  900 miles is huge.  Going VFR would be very tricky.  You're more than likely going to become instrument rated to fly that distance on a regular basis.

[Jeff_S]

Quote: rbridges

another point.  900 miles is huge.  Going VFR would be very tricky.  You're more than likely going to become instrument rated to fly that distance on a regular basis.

[Jeff_S]

Well, my first post showed up now...never mind!

[xftrplt]

As a fledgling, you're lucky to have received some excellent advise from Hamilton:

Your pick for an aircraft has challenges to even the best pilot.

And Green:

Your first "mission" is to become a safe pilot.  Stick and rudder skills are no more and perhaps less important than learning the "environment" of flying and judgement.  You are going to make mistakes in spite of the best instruction and your best intentions.  Hopefully those mistakes will become only the gist (sic) for hangar talk, not eulogies.

To accomplish this first "mission" you need an airplane that will accomodate as many mistakes as possible; that is not a Mooney.

Buy a 172 and become a pilot.  Get some tail wheel instruction early so you learn to use your feet.  Get an instrument rating, get some spin instruction, get some experience mis-judging weather, and then, if it fits your "mission", buy a Mooney.  In the meantime, the 172 is about as easy to buy and sell as any airplane imaginable and every mechanic knows it from spinner to tail cone.  The Skylane would be my second choice and is a legitimate cross country airplane.

Furthermore, trips of 900+ miles present factors (e.g., crossing frontal boundries) that, statistically, conspire against completing the trip exactly when you'd like and require experience and judgment to execute safely.  Wanting to make it back to see kids and dog (ok, well, dog anyway) is a sure way to contract "get-home-itis," a common (but short-lived) aviation malady.

P.S.:  If determined to fly high, get hypoxia training.

[orangemtl]

I can echo SkyWarrior and AustinPynes to a degree.  Private license at 29, then 20 years of career and family, and then decided life is short and I'd better start flying Rightnow, or forget about it.  Bought the Acclaim.

I cannot recommend (even if they were less prohibitively expensive) my route for everyone.  I was determined to do the whole process once, and I do not find the trade-up ladder appealing, for aircraft ownership. Just me, perhaps, but I prefer to have the bond/pride of ownership and the knowledge that the plane is there when I need it, all the time, with nobody else fiddling with it. I'm just not an airplane partnership guy.

I had every expectation that my choice of aircraft as an extreme amateur was a leap off the high dive. Take your 12 year old to the car dealership. Buy him a Ferrari. Tell him to drive it from Illinois to Texas. All at night. Now, you've vaguely parallelled the experience I had with the Acclaim.  I've had EXCELLENT instruction, and without a doubt the demands of the aicrraft have made me a safer and, for my low but rising level of experience a more capable pilot. Which is a good thing, because the demands upon my amateur, 50 year old brain were IMMENSE.  Frankly, were it not for the Stimulus Act in place at the time, I'd have waited a few more years and probably ended up with a 20 year old A36. Or decided 'maybe next year' yet again, and never made the jump.

For me personally, the 'buy a 172 and visit your inexperience upon it' route wouldn't have worked.  The weekly rental to gain experience suggestion is a very good one---but is essentially the same thing as getting LOTS OF INSTRUCTION. Which, you should. I spent about 50 hours with two serial instructors (just due to geography: both are great), and plan to do more with the passage of time. I'd fly another hour per week w/an instructor simply to etch good procedure into my brain, but: we all have our limits.  I flew my longest x-country a few weeks ago: Western AZ to Chicago suburbs and back @ 1300 NM each way; a 7 hour trip managing a Mooney is mentally TIRING.  I could not have predicted that beforehand.  For anything less than, say 900 miles, it's fine.  Just don't have any illusions about hopping in after a day at the office, nor attending a bruising business meeting out of town, then zipping 700 miles home.  You won't be fun to be around.

I apologize for the endless post, but: in summary: if you want to start with your LAST airplane, get the Mooney. You will either love it endlessly and fly forever, or find that the demands are excessive and it will scare you out of the air. I've had both feelings, although the former has long overtaken the latter.  I cannot speak for earlier Mooneys, but the later 6 cylinder ones demand your attention, and resent carelessness.  I truly enjoy landings, and could just go to the airport and do takeoffs and landings for an hour for the sheer enjoyment.  The first 20-25 landings for me in my plane were NOT that same experience. 

Don't buy an aircraft that you don't love.  It's too important a financial decision, and too important a mental perception to find youself on Saturdays thinking, "Hey, it's time to go jump into that fugly 172, so I can beat on it with some raggedy landings and eventually get good enough to fly something I enjoy'.  I exaggerate, but: you get the idea. O2?  I used it X-country; better to have and not need, than need and not have, IMO.  MOre experienced voices on this site will have more informed opinions.

I wish you the best of luck, and hours of challenge and joy regardless of what you buy. Welcome!

[TonyPynes]

Michael,

I love it.

  "Hey, it's time to go jump into that fugly 172, so I can beat on it with some raggedy landings and eventually get good enough to fly something I enjoy'.

Now that you put it that way......

 

 

[Hank]

Rich--

I bought my Mooney six weeks after my PPL checkride. Others here have done similarly. It is very possible. I have also read of people who bought a Mooney as a student pilot [the thought of that insurance premium gives me the willies!], but even they did not use the Mooney until late in the process.

In other words, Mooneys can be fine for low-time pilots, with good instruction from a Mooney-proficient CFI. But for God's sake, and the sake of your Mooney-to-be, learn to land and get good at it first! Taking your PPL checkride in the Mooney will be more difficult than in the FBO's rental, too; remember, you have to demonstrate not only proficiency in flying, but the airworthiness of the aircraft--with a rental, the FBO will put together the package for you.

Whatever you do, have fun and fly safe!

[jetdriven]

The accident reports are full of low time pilots crashing high performance airplanes.    I would say, respectfully, defer your decision to buy a plane until after you have your PPL and some hours in a HP/ complex aircraft.  Perhaps buy and fly 172 or cherokee for a year, then make the transition.

 

Further, these boards are full of pilots buying airplanes and then immediately having to put an engine in it or major repairs.  Many of them owned airplanes before. It is a minefield and the process takes time with experience. It took us a year,and when we found the right one, we knew it.

[John Pleisse]

I solo'ed on my 16th birthday, had a hiatus and came back in my late 20's with only 200 hrs. I wanted to purchase a Mooney, but a friend and neighbor who was a G-6 pilot insisted I have an instrument rating first. I bought the Mooney anyway with the rationale it would be a better instrument training platform. It was.

It is inarguable you can get yourself in a lot of trouble really quick in a fast, complex single, but I see no problem in purchasing a Mooney if you are serious about insrtument work and safety. Log a lot of dual...get your intrument rating, then travel and be careful.

Flying high and 02? Take it seriously and do both a mountain flying class and an get your high-alt sign off. Also, learn about maintenance and annual exspense of a built in 02 system.... it's an eye opener.

[DaV8or]

My advise, buy an Archer and complete through your IR. If you can't afford an Archer, get a Warrior. These variants of the Cherokee make excellent Mooney trainers. The landing sight picture, handling and systems are very similar. If you can, even though it sounds silly, get one of those fake gear switch knobs so that you get in the habit of lowering the gear during your GUMPS check. When you start your IR training, you will really appreciate the slower plane!

When you finish the IR, trade for whatever Mooney you really want. I don't think Archers or Warriors are very hard to get rid of. They're very popular.

[jlunseth]

I agree with the suggestions to rent a 172 for PPL, and also the suggestion to move on to your instrument as soon as possible, if you mission profile includes long (several hundred mile) cross countries.  In fact, I would suggest finding a place to train in a Warrior or Archer, to build experience in a low wing.  It is not a big difference, but one less thing to transition to when you find your Mooney.  If you can locate one of the new-type programs where you can take PPL and Instrument at the same time, so much the better.

I followed just exactly the path you are describing, except I waited until after I had gotten my PPL to buy my Mooney.  I bought a 231 at that point because I was about to take Instr., and pending that I wanted a plane that I could learn in without it costing a whole home mtg., and that would be useful for medium length cross countries. 

Mooneys are only similar to sports cars in some ways.  You sit low with your feet forward like a sports car.  The steering linkage feels tighter. But there are few similarities between the issues speed and acceleration present on the ground versus what they present in the air.  Traffic is a constant threat on the ground, so laying rubber and doing 0-60 in 3 seconds can always get you into instant trouble.  There is certainly the threat of traffic in the air, especially in the pattern, but it is nothing like the threat on the ground.  On our longer trips where we are in the teens and low flight levels we never see another aircraft until landing, and not often then unless the trip takes us to the east or west coasts.

When you do buy your Mooney, I would strongly recommend a 252, Rocket, Bravo, or if you can afford it, an Acclaim, for your mission profile.  You want a turbo not only for the speed you can realize by getting up high, but for the ability to get above alot of weather, and also for the safety of having 30-40 nm of glide range should you need it.  Your aircraft should be FIKI equipped (flight into known icing), which leaves the 231 out.  You should have GPS, a good to very good AP (KFC150 or better), satellite weather, and while you are at it, sat radio is really nice for those long trips. 

You need to consider whether your mission plan includes long trips with more than you in the aircraft.  The Mooneys in this class can have small payloads with full fuel.  I love my 231, but it is a two person aircraft for long trips.  Some models are one person only.

Lastly, yes you should get O2.  The system is not hard to maintain, and the safety advantages of flying high are significant.  It costs about $80 to fill my O2 tank, and that is 5-6 hours for two people. 

These things are particularly important if your mission plan includes mountain crossings.  Yes, take a mountain flying course.  But the first thing you will notice is that the course is about flying in the mountains, not over that mountains.  You lose a good deal of the conditions that make mountain flying uniquely hazardous, such as mountain waves and downdrafts, by being more than about 3,000 over them rather than being in them.

Lastly, you should wait until you get your PPL and have a really good idea of your limitations, and what your want in an aircraft, before you buy.  There is significant transactional cost whenever you sell one aircraft and buy another, so better to wait and understand your mission profile, before you buy something and find it is not quite enough.  Get what your really need the first time, that is the best way to go.

I bought my 231 thinking the one thing I did not want myself doing is challenging icing.  I should have just gotten FIKI to begin with.  I am looking in the future to get into a FIKI Bravo or similar, wish I had done it at the start.  If you fly long cross countries, weather is always a consideration.  There is nearly always going to be a weather change or condition along the way to deal with.  There are two that can kill you, thunderstorms and icing.  With good sat wx, you can almost always find a way through or around Tstorms, and you will know from your screen if you can't and should just go to ground.  Icing, unfortunately, is pretty much everywhere, all the time, for 4 - 6 months of the year, and unavoidable unless you just don't fly.  So FIKI, I think, is very important to your mission.

One piece of advice if you are going to do this.  Learn, learn, learn.  Sign up for WINGS and go often.  Get your commercial.  Maybe do upset recovery training.  Do the MAPA seminars once a year.  You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to be the most competent pilot you can be, and there is alot to learn to fly the missions you intend to fly. 

[orangemtl]

Quote: jetdriven

The accident reports are full of low time pilots crashing high performance airplanes.    I would say, respectfully, defer your decision to buy a plane until after you have your PPL and some hours in a HP/ complex aircraft.  Perhaps buy and fly 172 or cherokee for a year, then make the transition.

 

Further, these boards are full of pilots buying airplanes and then immediately having to put an engine in it or major repairs.  Many of them owned airplanes before. It is a minefield and the process takes time with experience. It took us a year,and when we found the right one, we knew it.

[Ron McBride]

I have been flying for almost 40 years. I learned a lot from the right seat of a Comanche. My Dad owned this. I got my Private in a C150 at 17.  I have flown high performance complex aircraft for most of my flying. Some of the most fun flying I did was after having to repo a Cardinal. It was a nice change from flying a 310.  I finally got my Instrument 3 years ago. I have not used it much, but I feel much safer with it. I have a 1400 mile flight for Sat to do, I will complete this flight VFR.  I have completed this flight VFR many times.   I did have to sit out a thunderstorm for a couple of hours.  After 7 or more hours in a plane, you will be tired. My F has an autopilot and this helps tremendously. Learn about Avoinics in great detail, so that you know which ones will give you the most. Avionics have changed so much in the last 10 years.

Buy the most practical plane that you can,   Remember though, DO NOT schedule yourself into a business bind if you can not make that flight safely. It is better to lose business and spend the night(S) in a Hotel, than to be dead.

Enjoy

Ron

[richc22a]

I appreciate the responses, immensely..good sound wisdom, judgement..I have big ears and pay attention and take it all in.( Jim, I have a lousy sense oh humor re the 737...knew you were not rcommending it...) I have found a Mooney rental, and that will be interesting to see if it taxes my aptitude.... It took me 5000 miles and some studying to learn how to corner a high performance 50/50 balanced car, no real comparison, other than to say education, practical experience together advance the dream with manageable risk.

My job is high stress, and flying is and always has been a dream. I appreciate the input and as 'pic' in training will proceed with more to consider....