check lists format questions

[jamesm]

Hi,

I am looking to re-write the the Original check list i.e. Starting, Before take off ...  check lists.

Since I have removed the Vacuum pump, and I  Have Surefly Electronic Magneto , Electroair start panel and installed to G5's.

My question is the there any FAA regulation(s) that says that the Check list(s) must be  written  or approved by the Manufacture? For example  The POH (1967 Owners Manual ) which has check list is a (somewhat) controlled document. Since the Owner Manual / POH has revision levels that contain the various Check lists.  Therefore  only Manufacture or Manufacture that have a STC for a says Flight Manual Supplement  process came be the only one to release latest document?   Which I would agree make no sense but many thing the FAA does doesn't no sense to me yet we are required to follow them.

Another  question that is I want to rewrite the Check list (s) to have better flow. i.e. My before Take-off  check list start with Flight controls free and correct, then fuel quantity,Fuel Selector, Fuel Pressure. then later on gets into Flap set and elevator trim as  an example. what I would like to do is keep all like functions and controls  together.

So flight controls  free and correct, wing flaps set for take-off,  elevator trim  set for take off , then fuel related check, then instruments, run up , etc etc.

The starting sequence is totally different from the OEM Owner Manual and Electro air really doesn't tell you how you should start a engine using their start  panel.

example above , Since there are a few different types of  ignition start switches out there ( i.e. impulsed, shower of sparks) .  So I start on Left Mag (Surefly) while the right Mag (Bendix) is off (grounded) nothing that I saw published by Electroair told me this . Other than I was told how the ignition switch  works in my aviation training  and electronics background and confirmed my understanding by a continuity check of the ignition switch.  I know I know I am split hairs here but I want no troubles from the Feds and at some point plan doing check ride in my plane and don't want to call into question on check lists that I made.

So the reason that I am asking is not create rational and or logical debate  argument but to be able to create a  legal  documents that wont catch scrutiny or attention of the FAA.

Which some of the FAA officials are very good finding the  't" not crossed and the 'i' not dotted but on the other hand approve the  High CHT's on C model  on take off  are complete overlooked. The FAA makes next to impossible to change / try it by a simple baffling to fix a design that never should have been approved in the first place. IMHO. I would prefer to be on the FAA's good side and not have a target on my back.

Curious to know your thoughts thanks in advance,

James '67C

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

My opinion, write a check list that makes sense, covers the critical items, and is in a flow that makes it efficient.   It’s far more valuable that the checklist helps you avoid “gotcha’s” than anything else!!! 
 

I’ve had to deal with checklists written by airline pilots, leaving every stone from being unturned, (my Airlifeline Organization), and watched the very same pilots skim over the 3 page checklist missing items listed 3 times.  
 

Keep it brief, to the point, and realistic!!

Tom

[Hank]

As a new student pilot, my CFI made me take a spare POH home and write checklists for each phase of flight, from Preflight to After Landing. I made it fit one piece of paper in landscape; the reverse side had all of the Emergency sections. Then I soft laminated it and folded it in thirds to fit my shurt pocket and use with the Preflight swction showing. 

So the next year, I did the same thing for my Mooney. But it wouldn't fit even one side of a legal paper, so I made it in booklet format. (See the Help section in Word.) 

In both, I started with the official book, but left out all of the extra verbiage, only what to check / move and what is should be(come). Then I sat in the plane and scribbled changes / updates for installed equipment, moved items around to make a good cockpit flow, then grouped them in ways that are logical to me and spaced to fit cleanly onto the pages.

Booklets have lots of space, so after I'd been flying the Mooney a little, to save my ancient Owners Manual I typed the Performance Tables into the final pages but only had room for 2300-2600 RPM and still be able to read it easily. With redline 2000-2250, this worked for me. 

Do whatever you want, it's your checklist. Just don't leave out anything important, you'll feel extra dumb reading that in your NTSB report.

[BrianWilkins]

It will only be questioned if / when there’s an accident.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, jamesm said:

My question is the there any FAA regulation(s) that says that the Check list(s) must be  written  or approved by the Manufacture?

No. I have been doing it fir 30 years. Heres a recent video from the FAA.

 

[Prior owner]

I don’t believe there is any restriction on having additional, personal checklists in the plane, so long as the original checklist (or POH) is in the plane. 

[midlifeflyer]

2 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said:

I don’t believe there is any restriction on having additional, personal checklists in the plane, so long as the original checklist (or POH) is in the plane. 

True, at least if the manufacturer's checklist happens to be, or be part of, a required document. 
 

As the video points out, there is also a very practical reason for rolling your own. Once we start replacing equipment, the AFMS for that equipment may have checklist items which can change the original ones. Add a new autopilot and it might have a before takeoff check which is required by its Limitations. Get a different prop and checklist items about takeoff and climb RPM might be different. The most extreme example I know of is the Diamond DA40XLS. It comes with a G1000, GFC 700, and two blade prop, but the main part of the POH is all based on the non-G1000, 3-blade version, with the newer equipment handled by Supplements. There are many Limitations and checklist items changed. Using the manufacturer checklist would require looking in 4 different places, 

[PT20J]

There are a lot of misconceptions about checklists.

FAR Part 91 does not require checklists EXCEPT for large (>12,500 lb) and turbine-powered aircraft.

The checklist provided in your AFM is not required to be followed and you can certainly and legally modify it if you want. The ONLY part of the AFM that is actually approved by the FAA is the Limitations section.

Some people worry that an examiner might require a manufacturer's checklist on a check ride, but I personally have never heard of this happening and I've taken a lot of check rides and know several examiners personally. But, if you have a check ride scheduled and are concerned about it, just ask the examiner beforehand.

The best checklist is the one that you create for yourself that is tailored to your equipment, experience and type of operation. Asaf Degani did a lot of research on best checklist practices years ago at NASA Ames Research Center. A quick web search will yield his papers.

Skip

 

[carusoam]

1) The POH is a great source for all the things that should be on the check list...

2) Get it personalized to fit your flow, to not skip things...

3) Get it updated to match the current status of the plane...

4) Add a new section, for all the electronic devices... make sure they are all on or off....

5) Make it brief... it’s a check list, not a to do list...

6) I got my original checklist from my Transition Training CFI... it matches my POH really well... except a few options I don’t have... 

7) Print one on paper...

8) have an electronic copy, on your phone...

9) Format...

• some like a booklet.. one small page for every part of the flight...
• some like a fold out brochure style...

10) Some people have it so well memorized, it is fun to fly with them.... when they use verbal mediation...

 

A check list can find a way to go missing...  When a door opens, it will escape to the back of the plane in the maelstrom....

In the O, the check list can slide forwards towards the windshield.... where your fingers can’t reach it....

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

5) Make it brief... it’s a check list, not a to do list...

This is an important point -- one of the primary reason that checklists don't get used is that they are too long. Years ago when Peter Morton was head of the Boeing flight training department, he wangled me a ride in he 767 sim. The Boeing before landing checklist only had a couple of items if I recall correctly. Of course most airlines added more stuff, but Boeing's philosophy was that most operation should be taught as standardized procedures and the checklists only needed to check really important items that were not easily made part of a SOP. Maybe they carried it too the extreme, but it's worth thinking about. Most of my checklist revisions remove items rather than add more. 

Skip

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, PT20J said:

FAR Part 91 does not require checklists EXCEPT for large (>12,500 lb) and turbine-powered aircraft.

Quite true.

The concern some people have about rolling their own seem to have two underlying premises, partly bu not completely related.

One is that the manufacturer's checklist some sort of gospel and cannot be modified. As you point out, it is not and it can. My normal ops checklists have become so customized and condensed  through the years, I have had the experience of a friend which tried to use one of mine but couldn't (that's why I don't share them). 

The other is a concern about making an "incorrect" change. The most extreme version is making sure every singe thing in the manufacturer's checklist is in yours. That concern has some legitimacy. For example, at least in theory, reversing the manufacturer's order for retraction of flaps and gear after takeoff can cause a problem. By far, most of the "failure to use checklist" enforcement cases I've read involve missing some procedure resulting in an incident or accident. he only difference between the Part 91 and the other cases is the regulatory violation found in addition to the finding of careless and reckless. So yeah, there's some reason to be careful what you modify or leave it.  But I think it gets overblown. 

 

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

5) Make it brief... it’s a check list, not a to do list...

Agree with the first half. Like @PT20J. I am convinced pilots don't use checklists because the are too long and cumbersome. The worst offenders are flying clubs, FBOs, and flight schools which include things like local frequencies and procedures, as though their pilots will never go anywhere else.

I only agree in part with the second half. I don't buy into the "only one way to properly use a checklist" concept. I think there is more than one correct way to use a checklist. They can be used "read and do" lists, "briefing" lists or "did" lists depending on the particular phase of flight, the pilot's experience with the aircraft and generally, and other factors.

"Read and do" - read a step and do it - is mostly used by new pilots and pilots in new-to-them aircraft as they are learning different cockpit flows. Some, of course, never get past that stage. Definitely not the best goal of checklist use, but as Seinfeld might say, not that there's anything wrong with it.

"Briefing" - That's a "to do" list   Best example is before takeoff, especially for those who fly different types aircraft. I'm kind of hoping no one starts rolling down the runway and then looks at a checklist for the first time to see when to rotate, the best climb speed,  or the upper speed limitations for retraction of gear and flaps (read-and-do), or, for that matter, takes off with no clue and then checks back to see whether they did it right ("did").

"Did" list. Also what some folks will refer to as a real "check" list. That's the flow followed by a check. I think the first one of those taught to most pilots is the preflight inspection - examine a segment of the airplane with a flow and check back to see if you managed to miss something.

Personally, I think the goal for most pilots should be a combination of "briefing" and "did" usage.  I "brief" my takeoffs and landings - big reason is the number of different aircraft I fly. Flow check for most everything else.

 

[0TreeLemur]

I purchased a couple commercial checklists for the M20C, but I found that they had steps out of order for my flow, had content that I didn't care about, or were missing important details.  Rolling my own was the solution.  One other problem was that I had trouble finding one that was informative enough and compact for my kneeboard. See below.  Double side printed and laminated it is just the right size for my kneeboard, and contains the information I want/need to have ready access to.  I've got several copies within reach in my a/c in case I drop one under the seat. 

 

[Niko182]

Heres one I made for my Eagle. The POH had too much stuff that really was checked too often.

 

[Tcraft938]

I made a checklist in foreflight that I physically touch/check each item. Also scanned into foreflight cruise and other performance data and W&B cert. That way when in an FBO waiting for weather to pass don’t have to run out in the rain to get POH. I was ramp checked and told them I had the info on iPad but would grab the POH from seat pocket. He wanted to see the iPad and said “your cool, safe flying and take time to enjoy it”. 

[Nukemzzz]

When I bought my 66E I found a metal placard checklist in the hat rack area that appears to be attached to the old glove box lid. This hints my plane had an official checklist placard and I assume it can’t be changed or has to stay in the plane right? 

[tmo]

The POH for my K has a list of all the required placards, in the 2-Limitations section, and also in some of the appendices. Not sure if the older ones also do, but I'd start there.

[jlunseth]

I made my own several years ago, turned it into a pdf and loaded into the Documents section of Foreflight. I have a paper version in my flight bag as a backup to a backup ( I have two iPads and an iPhone that have the electronic version loaded) but the paper version has not seen the light of day in nearly a decade. My POH has checklist items scattered throughout, and I have quite a bit of aftermarket things to deal with, so they needed to be consolidated somewhere. One thing I did that I think is really helpful, is to make a Before Takeoff section. It is particularly useful when I am doing pattern work, pull up to the hold short, and need to check pre-takeoff settings but don’t have to go back through Run Up, door closed, etc.

I have used my list through two checkrides and gotten compliments from the DPEs on how thorough my procedures are and how well I know the aircraft systems (I had better by now), so as far as checkrides are concerned a well-written roll your own checklist is a plus not a minus.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I made my own several years ago, turned it into a pdf and loaded into the Documents section of Foreflight. I have a paper version in my flight bag as a backup to a backup ( I have two iPads and an iPhone that have the electronic version loaded) but the paper version has not seen the light of day in nearly a decade. My POH has checklist items scattered throughout, and I have quite a bit of aftermarket things to deal with, so they needed to be consolidated somewhere. One thing I did that I think is really helpful, is to make a Before Takeoff section. It is particularly useful when I am doing pattern work, pull up to the hold short, and need to check pre-takeoff settings but don’t have to go back through Run Up, door closed, etc.

I have used my list through two checkrides and gotten compliments from the DPEs on how thorough my procedures are and how well I know the aircraft systems (I had better by now), so as far as checkrides are concerned a well-written roll your own checklist is a plus not a minus.

In the same theme, when I am going to fly a new to me type, whether as trainee or instructor, sometimes as just a passenger, the first thing I do is write my checklist. It does two things. One, it forces me to read the POH to determine the right order if things and the whys. Two, it puts the procedures into a familiar format whIch makes it easier to use.

[jamesm]

With multiple copies electronic and paper how do you keep version all the same ?

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

In the same theme, when I am going to fly a new to me type, whether as trainee or instructor, sometimes as just a passenger, the first thing I do is write my checklist. It does two things. One, it forces me to read the POH to determine the right order if things and the whys. Two, it puts the procedures into a familiar format whIch makes it easier to use.

I sort have a love hate relationship with Ipad's  or anything with a capacitive   touch screens. I have a slight tremor and trying change a flight plan in turbulence or even a bit of challenge a times.

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, jamesm said:

With multiple copies electronic and paper how do you keep version all the same ?

 

I sort have a love hate relationship with Ipad's  or anything with a capacitive   touch screens. I have a slight tremor and trying change a flight plan in turbulence or even a bit of challenge a times.

In my case it's easy. There's only one version.

I have, of course, tried going completely paperless in the 9+ years I've been using an EFB, but discovered I liked paper much better for two things - note-taking and checklists. I think electronic checklists are a great  concept (and I'll plug MiraCheck as best of breed from both a development and feature standpoint), but I find being able to lift a printed checklist into my line of sight and confirm my flow or brief the next phase is far more efficient for me.

The result is my paper and electronic checklists are identical. One checklist to create and edit, exported to a bookmarked pdf. The pdf is printed (primary) and uploaded to my tablets and phone (backup).

(Another MiraCheck plug: you can print the electronic checklists you create with it. There are enough decent format options available. So again, only one checklist to maintain for both printed and electronic copies.)

[jlunseth]

Oh, alright then. I hereby amend my last statement to read. “The one in the flight bag is, as I mentioned, a backup to a backup (the second iPad) to a backup (the iPhone) so I don’t recall ever having used it, I just keep it there in case the Russians hit us with an electrical jamming signal on the same day a meteorite the size of Rhode Island hits on the other side of the planet and the aliens invade from Alpha Centauri, so everything electrical in the world stops working.”

What I have to do to keep everyone happy. 

Edited September 6, 2020 by jlunseth

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

I have not changed my checklist in a long time, but when I do I just print out a new paper copy and stuff it in my flight bag. Then the versions all match. The one in the flight bag is, as I mentioned, a backup to a backup (the second iPad) to a backup (the iPhone) so I don’t recall ever having used it, I just keep it there in case the Russians hit us with an electrical jamming signal on the same day a meteorite the size of Rhode Island hits on the other side of the planet and everything electrical in the world stops working. The ones on the backup iPad and iPhone should automatically update, but I would check and make sure and replace as necessary. 

You forgot the alien invasion.