Lost Weight and balance documents

[Caribbean Aviator]

I am interested in buying a particular aircraft. Had a mechanic look at the plane and logs. All that was good but the owner can’t find the aircraft weight and balance documents. What options do I have to make the aircraft legal to fly? Will having the aircraft weighted again suffice or do I need to do anything else? My ideal goal is to get as close to original paperwork as possible. Thanks in advance.

[PT20J]

Just have the owner have it weighed and get a weight and balance completed. Not a big deal.

 

[RLCarter]

Put it on the scales

[RobertGary1]

Might have to ask a msc how to get the w&b manual. It’s not in a POH and usually in a separate document supplied to the owner. So you’ll need that as well to do a w&b. It may be on the faa cd.  
 

-Robert 

[RLCarter]

9 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Might have to ask a msc how to get the w&b manual. It’s not in a POH and usually in a separate document supplied to the owner. So you’ll need that as well to do a w&b. It may be on the faa cd.  
 

-Robert 

The procedure for weighing the aircraft is in the maintinace manual, a new weight & balance document can be added to aircraft records from that. Mine was missing from my E, had 6 or 7 old ones with "Superceded" written on them but no current one. 

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

The procedure for weighing the aircraft is in the maintinace manual, a new weight & balance document can be added to aircraft records from that. Mine was missing from my E, had 6 or 7 old ones with "Superceded" written on them but no current one. 

^^This.   Generating a new W&B report is reasonably straightforward with the SMM.   You do need somebody with a good set of scales that knows how to do it. 

[firelog1101]

Probably they don't want to do a W+B because it's typically lower than anticipated...

[RobertGary1]

36 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

The procedure for weighing the aircraft is in the maintinace manual, a new weight & balance document can be added to aircraft records from that. Mine was missing from my E, had 6 or 7 old ones with "Superceded" written on them but no current one. 

I said the w&b manual not the measured values. you’re missing thing like stations  and the cg envelop. That comes in a separate  document you’ll have to locate. 
 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

29 minutes ago, EricJ said:

^^This.   Generating a new W&B report is reasonably straightforward with the SMM.   You do need somebody with a good set of scales that knows how to do it. 

This isn’t what I was referring to. 
ths w&b manual may be on the faa cd or you may be able to get it from the msc. Otherwise you don’t know stations and cg envelope. It’s not in the POH.  
measuring the values is trivial. 
 

-Robert 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

This isn’t what I was referring to. 
ths w&b manual may be on the faa cd or you may be able to get it from the msc. Otherwise you don’t know stations and cg envelope. It’s not in the POH.  
measuring the values is trivial. 
 

-Robert 

Not sure what you mean by w&b manual. There are three items of interest. First is a weight and balance computation. If that is unavailable, one can be easily created by using the procedure in the Service and Maintenance Manual. The second is the equipment list, which I don't believe is required to be updated (and most aren't), but it can be really handy to know the particulars all the installed components when researching applicable ADs. The third item is the loading graph and stations for fuel, seats, baggage, etc. This information is generally in the POH/AFM for newer airplanes. If you don't have it, the information can be found in the TCDS.

Skip

[RobertGary1]

12 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Not sure what you mean by w&b manual. There are three items of interest. First is a weight and balance computation. If that is unavailable, one can be easily created by using the procedure in the Service and Maintenance Manual. The second is the equipment list, which I don't believe is required to be updated (and most aren't), but it can be really handy to know the particulars all the installed components when researching applicable ADs. The third item is the loading graph and stations for fuel, seats, baggage, etc. This information is generally in the POH/AFM for newer airplanes. If you don't have it, the information can be found in the TCDS.

Skip

That may be how the older models differ. That info is not in the afm:poh. It was provided in a w&b manual from Mooney when the plane was delivered. That is usually also where you place updates. That is the only place that provides station info and cg envelop. 

 I suppose with enough pain staking work you could recreate the graphs  from the type certificate but the average man would just try to get a copy from Mooney  

-Robert  

[RobertGary1]

The w&b manual that came with the plane will have stuff like this. The POH has no reference to w&b in older mooneys.  This Manual is also where the original weights and usually updates have been placed. If you lost that hopefully Mooney can provide it. 
 

 

[carusoam]

16 hours ago, Caribbean Aviator said:

I am interested in buying a particular aircraft. Had a mechanic look at the plane and logs. All that was good but the owner can’t find the aircraft weight and balance documents. What options do I have to make the aircraft legal to fly? Will having the aircraft weighted again suffice or do I need to do anything else? My ideal goal is to get as close to original paperwork as possible. Thanks in advance.

Would have been smart to say hi, I am looking at a... (fill in the blank)
 

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

24 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The w&b manual that came with the plane will have stuff like this. The POH has no reference to w&b in older mooneys.  This Manual is also where the original weights and usually updates have been placed. If you lost that hopefully Mooney can provide it. 
 

 

My 65 E has all loading info that is needed in the POH, the guy across from me has an Ovation and it’s in his book as well

[RobertGary1]

Just now, RLCarter said:

My 65 E has all loading info that is needed in the POH, the guy across from me has an Ovation and it’s in his book as well

You mean your owner's manual? I can't imagine Mooney made a POH for a 65E but not a 76F. All I have is the Owners Manual and it has no reference to W&B other than mentioning the gross weight.

-Robert

[carusoam]

RG’s page is typical for 1965...

Folded in half, tucked inside the airframe log...

Hard to recognize its value, until you are looking for it...  might be tossed in a stack of yellow tags and other assorted important things...

 

+1 for POH...

The OM was horribly short on useful info...

Recognize that the latest POHs for short bodies were printed around 1977...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

Here is the toc for the w&b manual that my plane came with.  It has both serial number specific stuff (my weight and equipment) but also the loading guide etc that newer planes put in a poh.  
 

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Would have been smart to say hi, I am looking at a... (fill in the blank)
 

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

And in that vein....

@Caribbean Aviator, what model Mooney has your interest? Complexities in getting the correct W & B information seem to decrease with later models.

[N201MKTurbo]

You need to make an equipment list that goes along with the W&B so you know what was in the plane when it was weighed. I would use a similar Mooney's as a template and modify it for your plane. I would file it all on a 337 (not required) so there is a permanent record of the W&B so you don't run into this problem again. 

[RLCarter]

5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You mean your owner's manual? I can't imagine Mooney made a POH for a 65E but not a 76F. All I have is the Owners Manual and it has no reference to W&B other than mentioning the gross weight.

-Robert

Ok, you are correct there is no loading or weight & balance info in the "Owners Manual" it is in the "Airplane Flight Manual" and there is no POH. When I purchased my E the required onboard documents where a mess, in a effort to clean that paper work up  I contacted Mooney and they emailed the current Owners Manual & AFM, section 3 of the AFM is the "weight & balance record" which list all you have mentioned above. While not correct, I have always referred to the Owner Manual & Airplane Flight Manual as the POH, but then again I still have and "Artificial Horizon" for an attitude indicator 

[Caribbean Aviator]

7 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

The w&b manual that came with the plane will have stuff like this. The POH has no reference to w&b in older mooneys.  This Manual is also where the original weights and usually updates have been placed. If you lost that hopefully Mooney can provide it. 
 

 

I hope so. My Mooney is a 1969 M20F. The manual for that year is a far cry from modern manuals.

[Caribbean Aviator]

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Ok, you are correct there is no loading or weight & balance info in the "Owners Manual" it is in the "Airplane Flight Manual" and there is no POH. When I purchased my E the required onboard documents where a mess, in a effort to clean that paper work up  I contacted Mooney and they emailed the current Owners Manual & AFM, section 3 of the AFM is the "weight & balance record" which list all you have mentioned above. While not correct, I have always referred to the Owner Manual & Airplane Flight Manual as the POH, but then again I still have and "Artificial Horizon" for an attitude indicator 

 

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Ok, you are correct there is no loading or weight & balance info in the "Owners Manual" it is in the "Airplane Flight Manual" and there is no POH. When I purchased my E the required onboard documents where a mess, in a effort to clean that paper work up  I contacted Mooney and they emailed the current Owners Manual & AFM, section 3 of the AFM is the "weight & balance record" which list all you have mentioned above. While not correct, I have always referred to the Owner Manual & Airplane Flight Manual as the POH, but then again I still have and "Artificial Horizon" for an attitude indicator 

Thanks! For now we are having the aircraft weighted hopefully Monday. I will give Mooney a call and see what they have available for a 69 M20F.

[PT20J]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Here is the toc for the w&b manual that my plane came with.  It has both serial number specific stuff (my weight and equipment) but also the loading guide etc that newer planes put in a poh.  
 

This is the same information that would be included in a POH/AFM for an aircraft built after 1975. Note that this is not an FAA-approved document (only the Limitations section of the POH/AFM is FAA approved). If missing, a replacement might be available from Mooney, but if they wanted to charge me much to reproduce it I would not bother because there really isn't much value to it. The original weight and balance is most certainly out of date. The only W&B that counts is the last one; no one cares about what went before except to check for possible math errors which are irrelevant once you weigh it. The equipment list might be nice, but it's probably way out of date also. The loading stations and envelope information are in the TCDS and you can reproduce the graph from that information on a piece of graph paper or just enter it in Foreflight or a smartphone app. 

Skip

 

 

[Caribbean Aviator]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have a re weight scheduled and just Gordon a call telling me that all the paperwork was found at owners home. I will inspect it to make sure it is all in order before I cancel the re weight. The owner is a little bit north when it comes to age and a little forgetful. Hopefully it’s all there.