Hudson Skyline route

[Shadrach]

Hi folks,

I had an early morning trip to Danbury CT and decided to try the Hudson River Skyline route (southbound) on my return. This was my firs trip down the Hudson.  Very cool but I was confused about the controller's handling of the situation.  The SFRA training states that the exclusion is up to but not including 1300 feet. The Bravo extends down to and includes 1300ft.  The controller told me that if I wished to descend below 2000msl that I would be in the exclusion and no longer given advisories.  I stayed put but could clearly see the Bravo floor of 1300ft on my EFB.  I have also read a number of threads online about the skyline tour at 1500msl. Can anyone with experience in the area speak to what's typical.  I was without ADSB in today and did not want to  cancel VFR advisories so I stayed at 2K.  Is this normal procedure?

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Shadrach

[Bob E]

If you want to fly low, in the Hudson SVFR corridor "exclusion," you don't have to talk to any controllers at all.  You do have to take the FAA's online course about the special rules that apply:

https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?pf=1&preview=true&cID=79

Following the rules is easy.  Note that the VFR corridor has entry and exit points and reporting points along the way. 

[Shadrach]

Just now, Bob E said:

If you want to fly low, in the Hudson SVFR corridor "exclusion," you don't have to talk to any controllers at all.  You do have to take the FAA's online course about the special rules that apply:

https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?pf=1&preview=true&cID=79

Following the rules is easy.  Note that the VFR corridor has entry and exit points and reporting points along the way. 

I did take the course and I understand that I can fly in the exclusion without services.  I prefer to fly with services, especially the first time through.  I was confused about the controller's imposed 2000 ft floor given the Bravo extend down to 1300msl.

[cferr59]

Who were you talking to? The bravo starts at 1300, but the most of that airspace is owned by Newark and LaGuardia Tower.  I've flow this many times and I've always been handed off to Newark and Laguardia until either north or south of their uncharted "surface areas".  Is it possible they just meant that they won't provide VFR traffic advisories in the area, not that you are outside of the bravo?  I'm not sure they are required to provide VFR traffic advisories (anyone?) and might have just been giving you a warning about that.  NY Approach will pick you up again just north of the GWB or south of the Verrazano.

I agree it is better to do it with ATC if possible.  A PA32 Lance hit a helicopter which resulted in the airspace restructuring and training requirements.

[Shadrach]

Just now, cferr59 said:

Who were you talking to? The bravo starts at 1300, but the most of that airspace is owned by Newark and LaGuardia Tower.  I've flow this many times and I've always been handed off to Newark and Laguardia until either north or south of their uncharted "surface areas".  Is it possible they just meant that they won't provide VFR traffic advisories in the area, not that you are outside of the bravo?  I'm not sure they are required to provide VFR traffic advisories (anyone?) and might have just been giving you a warning about that.  NY Approach will pick you up again just north of the GWB or south of the Verrazano.

Started with NY Approach and was handed off to Newark Tower then back to Approach at VZ.

[Bob E]

ATC doesn't give advisories in the Hudson SVFR corridor, and doesn't even monitor the SFVR corridor frequency 123.05.  The frequency is for pilots to self-announce their position near the reporting points so that other pilots are informed.  You don't have to get any kind of clearance from ATC to fly the corridor.

(To be clear, I'm talking about the VFR corridor below 1300 feet.)

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Bob E

[cferr59]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Started with NY Approach and was handed off to Newark Tower then back to Approach at VZ.

You weren't on with LaGuardia at all?  What was your route and altitude from about 2 miles north of the GWB to the about the Intrepid?  LaGuardia handled that the last few times I flew through there.

[carusoam]

We can add @201er to the conversation if there is anything else to cover...

Mike has videos of landing at JFK this week, and EWR a few weeks ago... he is resident at Linden, NJ...

Best regards,

-a-

[cferr59]

Just now, Bob E said:

ATC doesn't give advisories in the Hudson SVFR corridor, and doesn't even monitor the SFVR corridor frequency 123.05.  The frequency is for pilots to self-announce their position near the reporting points so that other pilots are informed.  You don't have to get any kind of clearance from ATC to fly the corridor.

(To be clear, I'm talking about the VFR corridor below 1300 feet.)

 

That is correct, but from what I gather, he is flying above that within the Bravo.  It is called the Skyline Route, but for some reason ATC doesn't always know what that means.  It is better to just request a bravo transition over the Hudson Corridor.

[201er]

31 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

The controller told me that if I wished to descend below 2000msl that I would be in the exclusion and no longer given advisories.  I stayed put but could clearly see the Bravo floor of 1300ft on my EFB.  I have also read a number of threads online about the skyline tour at 1500msl. Can anyone with experience in the area speak to what's typical.  I was without ADSB in today and did not want to  cancel VFR advisories so I stayed at 2K.  Is this normal procedure?

He told you to maintain the altitude convenient for him that he assigned you or take a hike (get below 1300ft), what’s not to understand? Welcome to New York. 

[Shadrach]

Just now, 201er said:

He told you to maintain the altitude convenient for him that he assigned you or take a hike (get below 1300ft), what’s not to understand? Welcome to New York. 

So 1) not my first rodeo with New York area controllers and 2) I’ve found New York area controllers to be some of the most accommodating and professional in the country. Potomac Tracon could take notes. 

I believe the Controller specifically said descending below 2000msl would put me in the exclusion. I don’t see how 2000msl would be any more convenient than 1500MSL. I did not receive a single traffic call out I was well outside the bravo.

[cferr59]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So 1) not my first rodeo with New York area controllers and 2) I’ve found New York area controllers to be some of the most accommodating and professional in the country. Potomac Tracon could take notes. 

I believe the Controller specifically said descending below 2000msl would put me in the exclusion. I don’t see how 2000msl would be any more convenient than 1500MSL. I did not receive a single traffic call out I was well outside the bravo.

1.) As you surmised, 1500 feet does not put you in the exclusion.  If the controller meant this, they are wrong.

2.) People complain about NY approach, but I have always found them pretty accomodating considering their workload.  I have had less luck VFR from the south, but when entering from the north, I don't think I have ever been denied entry into the bravo VFR.  And IFR, I get sent DIXIE-V1-JFK-... which is a pretty reasonable routing.  

[201er]

There is not a single section of NY Bravo where the floor is 2000ft. So either you misunderstood or he misspoke or what I originally said.

Sometimes they have LGA arrivals flying the Hudson at 3-4000. Sometimes helicopters or opposing traffic at 1500. It’s a crap shoot if you get assigned 1500 or 2000. Sometimes they jerk you around up and down and up. 

[201er]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

The controller told me that if I wished to descend below 2000msl that I would be in the exclusion and no longer given advisories. 

Exactly which controller said this? NY approach, LGA tower, or EWR tower and where were you?

[Shadrach]

6 minutes ago, 201er said:

There is not a single section of NY Bravo where the floor is 2000ft. So either you misunderstood or he misspoke or what I originally said.

Sometimes they have LGA arrivals flying the Hudson at 3-4000. Sometimes helicopters or opposing traffic at 1500. It’s a crap shoot if you get assigned 1500 or 2000. Sometimes they jerk you around up and down and up. 

I think you’re  likely correct. He didn’t want to assign me anything under 2000 in the bravo so it was that or <1300. The way he phrased it left me thinking that I had misunderstood the rules.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

Just now, 201er said:

Exactly which controller said this? NY approach, LGA tower, or EWR tower and where were you?

IIRC it was approach and I was Southbound in the vicinity of Alpine Tower.

[201er]

Just now, Shadrach said:

IIRC it was approach and I was Southbound in the vicinity of Alpine Tower.

Aha. NY approach usually only provides service above 2k and LGA tower doesn’t handle north of GW Bridge. So, he’d have to terminate you and tell you to maintain VFR if you wanted lower than the bottom of his sector. 

[Shadrach]

Just now, 201er said:

Aha. NY approach usually only provides service above 2k and LGA tower doesn’t handle north of GW Bridge. So, he’d have to terminate you and tell you to maintain VFR if you wanted lower than the bottom of his sector. 

Thanks.That makes sense.  He could have just told me to ask Newark after the handoff. Still a nice trip.

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, Bob E said:

ATC doesn't give advisories in the Hudson SVFR corridor, and doesn't even monitor the SFVR corridor frequency 123.05.  The frequency is for pilots to self-announce their position near the reporting points so that other pilots are informed.  You don't have to get any kind of clearance from ATC to fly the corridor.

(To be clear, I'm talking about the VFR corridor below 1300 feet.)

 

Yes, I know.  I wanted the "Skyline route" which is in the Bravo.  I just wanted to be at the floor of the Bravo 1300msl rather than at 2000msl.

[201er]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Yes, I know.  I wanted the "Skyline route" which is in the Bravo.  I just wanted to be at the floor of the Bravo 1300msl rather than at 2000msl.

I have never once flown it 1300. They've always assigned either 1500 or 2000. Just cause it's where the bravo starts, doesn't mean it's the altitude ATC works with. Often times southbound they assign 2000 and 1500 northbound but it's not written in stone. Coming from CT they usually have me maintain 3500 crossing HPN and then drop to 2000 by Alpine Tower. Usually don't get down to 1500 until with Newark Tower and south of the statue.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

I have never once flown it 1300. They've always assigned either 1500 or 2000. Just cause it's where the bravo starts, doesn't mean it's the altitude ATC works with. Often times southbound they assign 2000 and 1500 northbound but it's not written in stone. Coming from CT they usually have me maintain 3500 crossing HPN and then drop to 2000 by Alpine Tower. Usually don't get down to 1500 until with Newark Tower and south of the statue.

The FAST course on the SFRA as well as the AOPA information that I studied on the subject matter did not make mention of any of this useful information. I guess I should’ve come here first...

[MooneyMitch]

This may be an opportunity for you  to enlighten FAAST and AOPA folks with your updated knowledge in order to help others to come .

[StevenL757]

17 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Started with NY Approach and was handed off to Newark Tower then back to Approach at VZ.

I've done the route many times in multiple aircraft.  Talk to whomever you need to, and keep them informed as to your intentions.  Different controllers will handle you differently, so state your intentions, stick to your plan, and don't overthink it.  Every controller I've ever worked with has been nothing but helpful if you play the game.  They aren't looking to be adversarial...they just want you to be aware of your surroundings, that your plan is thought out, and that you keep it complete and brief with them.  They'll let you know if they need you at another altitude and/or heading.

In short, be prepared to be flexible, but most of all, enjoy!

[Shadrach]

51 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I've done the route many times in multiple aircraft.  Talk to whomever you need to, and keep them informed as to your intentions.  Different controllers will handle you differently, so state your intentions, stick to your plan, and don't overthink it.  Every controller I've ever worked with has been nothing but helpful if you play the game.  They aren't looking to be adversarial...they just want you to be aware of your surroundings, that your plan is thought out, and that you keep it complete and brief with them.  They'll let you know if they need you at another altitude and/or heading.

In short, be prepared to be flexible, but most of all, enjoy!

I did all of the above. Controller was not flexible.  opposite of my experience when bound for Danbury earlier that day. The New York controllers were very accommodating over and above expectations (this has been my experience time and time again). I was bound to have a mediocre experience with them at some point. Is the exact opposite in the DC/Balt metro area. I’m actually surprised to get accommodating controllers in that area.