Electric Mooney

[Blue on Top]

aviatoreb has posted this on a different topic, and I think it should be a new topic … and one I'm very interested in it.  We'll see how this goes  

@aviatoreb  Great post!  I'll see if I can get the history from the other thread.  Thanks! Let's turn this discussion properly fully modern.  Forget avgas lycosaurus or conty.  Forget turbine as they fuel specifics aren't great although they are fantastically reliable and high power/fast.  Forget diesel since those were not meant to be turbo boosted for high altitude ops and they are complicated - even though in practice a Mercedes diesel ala Diamond is enticing.... Electric!  I will buy a new airplane when I can buy an electric airplane that has the range, speed, and reliability I expect in an airplane worthy of 500-700k of my hard earned dollars.  I think that will be in about 10 years when the technology finally catches up?  (In current dollars by then). Actually I would be happy with hybrid electric.  You know the deal - small gas engine of some kind runs a generator that charges a battery.  For take off you let both the gas and the electric motor fuel the prop for high take off power.  Then its all electric (charging) for cruise.  You get the reliability plausibly of an electric system, with a gas engine as backup - or anyway this is a twin engine reliability in a single shaft. And plausibly fantastic range.... It could be very high power too. Let it be plug in electric so that for short flights you can run entirely on what charge you can draw out of the all - so for some of your flying its pennies per mile.  Literally pennies per mile of "fuel" cost. Electric is coming - its just a matter of time.  Here is a potential cape air electric air airplane. (Cape air flies around here - remember the tv show wings and their Cessna 402s?  I have been on that very exact airplane - it has a sticker on it that says, as seen on wings). https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane That's what I want.... but shaped like a Mooney.

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch said:

I agree with an electric Mooney.

As with our growing fleet of Tesla’s and other electric autos, not to mention Counties such as San Luis Obispo, CA, that have set their sights on becoming all electronic within the next several years ( others to follow)........is the power infrastructure growing, or will it grow enough to support future all electric everything?

Where and what will all that electricity be created from? Certainly no longer from atomic energy power plants, such as our local Diablo Canyon nuclear plant being decommissioned.

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb replied:

That is a very interesting comment Mitch.  I don't know.  Does anyone here know the actual total power draw of all the cars in the USA car fleet and how any kilowatts that draws?  Is this an issue to the power grid or is it still relatively small and the current or slightly upgraded version fo the power grid might easily absorb it?

I live in a part of the county that generates a lot of excess power and we ship it to the grid.  Here in far upstate rural NY, we have a lot of hydro, a lot of wind, and also, not right here but within about 100 miles some nuke. (Oswego Nuke power).  I live on a river and it has hydro 1 mile from my house downstream and also a few miles upstream.  About 15 miles away there is a massive hydro power station that helps power an Alcoa and also GM plants.  Plus the grid.  And big wind farms here there and about this area. No lack of power here.

[Blue on Top]

@Hank Replied to MooneyMitch with:

They have the same problem as electric cars--limited range and stupid-long charge time. Even after the initially very limited number of charging stations is tackled, ever seen several planes in line to spend 5 minutes each pumping fuel? Want to be #4 in line for your turn at a one-hour charge cycle? Long XCs will go away, can't go further than you can RTB from, allowing for winds and reserve. Land, plug in and go home . . . . 

No thanks. No electric car, no electric plane. But electric RC planes are great, no greasy exhaust residue to clean off at the end of an afternoon's fun.  

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch Said:

I may be simply ignorant of the availability of current power excess, and/or planning for future demands...... I just don’t hear about it.

Who or what is running the ship?

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with:

No I disagree entirely.  You are citing relative to today's technology.  I am confident that future technology will make electric easily produce good range.  For cars and airplanes.  5 years? 10 years?  50 years?  When is the issue.  In my original post on this above I just made up a number and said 10 years.

Hybrid electric is what I put forward as a plausible near term solution since that entirely mitigates the all electric battery range issue.  And plug in electric is the best of that for flexibility.

As for cars, I for one live 1.5 mi from work - I ride bike in the summer and I drive in the winter.  All electric would be fine for my daily driver even with current limited range.  But the cost benefit is not so much there yet and I maintain a gas car instead.

An issue I stated above, but I will repeat, is perhaps one of the greatest airplane specific benefits of a hybrid electric system if I understand this right - we get potentially twin engine reliability from a single shaft/single prop system.  If the gas engine gives out you still have the electric, and vice versa.

[Blue on Top]

@Hank Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

Your local power company runs your ship. Alabama Power runs mine here. As far as I know, there is no overarching structure, just a maze of power companies from large (American Electric Power) to small (electric coops that serve single communities). 

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

I agree - I hope and expect someone is looking into that critical issue.  What is the current power capacity of our electric system and can it absorb an all electric car fleet or otherwise what would it take to expand it to do so.

[Blue on Top]

@Hank Replied to @aviatoreb with:

That will be a challenge in crowded, dense metro areas. But like you, there are three hydro facilities (that I know of) within a dozen miles of my home.

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with:

I should ask some of the guys at work - funny enough I am in an ECE department and several of the profs are actually specialists in power grid, or actually the electric engineering part of it, but I bet they know.  Good question!

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch Replied to @Hank with:

The future lies ahead....... technology will move forward, eliminating long time charging experiences, and eliminating the batteries that dictate that......

The vast Tesla,  waiting to charge line I’ve witnessed at Madonna Inn ( San Luis Obispo) charging station is enough to frighten me away from such.

I’m waiting so as not to wait in a charging line. 

And, what about that great sound from my gasoline Porsche Cayman flat 6 engine I get to hear with each acceleration?  Would the engineers add a simulated audio sound in its place?

But wait, Porsche has the electric car already!  Oh my....... vroom, vroom!! 

[Blue on Top]

@Hank replied to @MooneyMitch with:

Yeah, now imagine lines like that enroute to your destination, at a small town FBO, with longer charge times for larger aircraft batteries. 

Gives me the heebie-jeebies.  

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch Replied to @Hank with:

Our CA PG&E Company is a huge bad boy these days, what with starting all those fires.......it’s a love hate relationship with them..... current stock prices reflect that..... our CA government want to take them over!!

With all that, makes me wonder if PG&E ship captain is even thinking about future needs !

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

aviatoreb has posted this on a different topic, and I think it should be a new topic … and one I'm very interested in it.  We'll see how this goes  

....Electric is coming - its just a matter of time.  Here is a potential cape air electric air airplane. (Cape air flies around here - remember the tv show wings and their Cessna 402s?  I have been on that very exact airplane - it has a sticker on it that says, as seen on wings). https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane That's what I want.... but shaped like a Mooney.

You are right Blue. It should be a separate thread - thanks for clipping out my stuff to make a new thread of it!

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

Our CA PG&E Company is a huge bad boy these days, what with starting all those fires.......it’s a love hate relationship with them..... current stock prices reflect that..... our CA government want to take them over!!

With all that, makes me wonder if PG&E ship captain is even thinking about future needs !

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with:

Me too - but you are imaging current tech.  I could imagine that tech in 5 years or 10 years might make those problems something of the past.  

Plus infrastructure improvements.  I mean once upon a time there were gas cars (1910) and no gas stations.  Today there are electric cars and few charging stations.

Today the only reasonable use for an all electric car in my opinion is as a daily work commuter if you can make it there and back on a single charge.  Still that covers a large fraction of the USA fleet of cars in the large fraction of the mileage they put on each year.  So already there is some utility in all electric given already todays imperfect technology.

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch Said:

Alright..... one last comment prior to my departure........ it’s time for Mike Elliott to chime in on his beautiful Tesla X and his thoughts on the great idea of the electric Mooney..... I absolutely love that thought!!  

[Blue on Top]

@cliffy Posted:

If any of you remember we had, many years ago, all electric homes and neighborhoods.

They went the way of the dinosaur also as they didn't sell well. SLO are you listening? Those who forget history tend to repeat it.

Hybrid power?  Think locomotives. They run diesel generators to power electric drive motors. You have an energy loss in running the diesel engine and the generator then you have an electrical loss in powering the drive motors. Lots of energy loss in the system. 

Power required- for every 100 HP needed at the prop you need to generate AND deliver to it @75KW of electric power (not including the system losses). A 100 amp , 12 volt alternator delivers about 1200 watts or 1.2KWs   (if my numbers are correct)

Are we seeing the size and weight of an alternator that can deliver even 100 HP to the prop? Through  an electric motor with its losses?

A diesel engines driving a generator that drive an electric motor to drive the prop. How many points of failure in this system does one have to allow for and engineer out?   

And now do we see the fact that not only do we need to lift the battery pack but also the big diesel generator plus the electric drive motor? Useful load for such a contraption? 

All one needs to do is measure the weight per HP delivered to the prop of the entire power plant to see if you are ahead of the game or not. 

Until the energy density of any battery can match the energy density of dino juice by weight you will have less than we have now.

Until the recharge rate for that battery can match the time element of a dino juice refill it will be a lessor item. 

Then factor the overall on going costs for new batteries  Will they be  competitive with the cost of an engine overhaul?

Then you have the diesel engine to overhaul, the generator to overhaul and the electric prop drive motor to overhaul. 

The bottom line?  The power has to come from somewhere!  Dino power or?

The wind don't blow but about 2/3 of the time for windmills

The sun don't shine 1/2 the time

The wind don't blow sometimes at night! 

There's only so many hydro-plants out there.  There ain't gonna be any more ever built due to environmentalists!

So where does that leave us? Dino Juice for the foreseeable future. 

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @cliffy with:

I agree - we are not ready TODAY for electric airplanes.  Or an all electric fleet of cars.  But the phrase "those that forget history..." is meant for human behavior.  It is not a useful expression when it comes to technology adoption or innovation.  The contrary,  new break out technology comes exactly because people dare to do what was not done before or what might have failed before - they innovate new technology to make it work.

I just purchased a new Dino-juice car 3 months ago.  I was not ready to jump on to the elective bandwagon for various cost benefit reasons.  I full expect my next new car will be electric.

Whether or not the power grid can expand to include an all electric car fleet does not mean for or against whether a version of all electric might be perfect for certain airplane applications.  

I will repeat, that in my lifetime I expect and hope to own an all electric airplane that will cover all of my current airplane flying needs and interests.

[Blue on Top]

@cliffy Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

And they shut down their entire grid in N Calif  when the wind blows

So there you are at Yuba City plugged in to charge your big green machine and the grid goes down! 

Some gas stations with a little forethought can at least pump some gas with an independent generator

[Blue on Top]

@MooneyMitch Posted:

Those young brilliant minds we all talk about that are wasting away behind their computer screens in their bedroom,......... they are, and will create what the future demands!! 

I see them in my music industry, and I know they are in other industries as well.

Incentives, and the freedoms to pursue is the carrot for them.....

[Blue on Top]

@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

Don't worry about me - I'm on the back deck enjoying the lazy afternoon.  Also - believe it or not - I am working - slow burner - I am coding and some of my work coding involves testing my code and then debugging/trying again.  So I have like 5 min dead spots in my work where I check the news or goof off on here on MS shooting-the-breeze about whatever.  Good relaxing Sunday afternoon in the sunshine.

[Blue on Top]

@cliffy Replied to himself:

Yes somewhere down the line (when?) it will happen but not in the foreseeable future 10+ years. 

If I had a daily commute  of 20 miles or less I might be in the electric car market but I'm not. 

Cost of battery replacement right now is killing the used electric car pricing IIRC

How long do you think it will be before the states start to tax electric vehicles for the gas tax revenue they are losing right now? 

Calif just raised their gas tax again. I see a yearly mileage report and tax per mile in the future, GPS tracking of all electric vehicles for automatic billing of taxes?

[Blue on Top]

@Mike Elliott Replied to @MooneyMitch with:

Well, I wont get into a TSLAQ debate with the shorts or naysayers, suffice it to say I used to race Porsche's and Datsuns, have been lucky enough to be able to drive and own some very fine cars and without question, the electric car makes even the nicest offering from Lexus feel old and antiquated. Great Software can do this to  you. Dont go test drive one, they are hard on your wallet. Fortunately, my TSLA stock has paid for half of mine already

Wait until Sept 15th, when possibly a greater than 500whr/Kg battery is announced, then an electric GA plane becomes viable.

[Blue on Top]

@salty Replied to @mike_elliott with:

That’s what they’ve been saying for more than 50 years. Good luck with that.