CIRRUS TRAGEDY

[kortopates]

3 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Once tower folks are at liberty (if at all) to share information, it will be quite interesting.   

Quite sad.

We might read some good witness accounts in the preliminary within the next couple weeks but I suspect we won't really know what the NTSB comes up with till the final comes out in another 12-18 months.

[MooneyMitch]

17 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Oh my!  A student pilot on a solo cross country, in the Cirrus?  There is more to this story.  So very tragic.

I didn’t realize the plane was an SR-20.  Another false assumption I made in assuming  it was an SR-22.

I did not know older SR-20’s were used for PP training.

[Nick Pilotte]

There are some flight schools up here in Chicagoland that use SR20s. Purdue university has a fleet as well that have been converted to fixed pitch props.  They cycle out at 5 years I believe. 
 

16 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

I didn’t realize the plane was an SR-20.  Another false assumption I made in assuming  it was an SR-22.

I did not know older SR-20’s were used for PP training.

There isn’t really a dimensional difference between the 20 and 22, save for slight changes between generations that got different longer landing gears later on. I don’t feel it’s a “bad” trainer, it’s just a different way of learning from what I gather. Still very sad as the pilot didn’t survive.  The doorbell video was hard to watch. 

[kortopates]

19 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

I didn’t realize the plane was an SR-20.  Another false assumption I made in assuming  it was an SR-22.

I did not know older SR-20’s were used for PP training.

Not necessarily older. The SR20 is a very popular trainer for the PPL used by a number of cirrus schools. In one sense , SR20 trainers fit into the Cirrus marketing vision to start you off in a modern luxurious roomy glass cockpit. It's only a 200 HP SEL fixed gear trainer, with a parachute, and roomier which appeals to many and being faster and more slippery than 160HP or 180HP C172 makes them more demanding and less forgiving initial trainer.  Anyway, a lot of opinions on training in a SR20 versus C172 which is a topic for another forum.

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Not necessarily older. The SR20 is a very popular trainer for the PPL used by a number of cirrus schools. In one sense , SR20 trainers fit into the Cirrus marketing vision to start you off in a modern luxurious roomy glass cockpit. It's only a 200 HP SEL fixed gear trainer, with a parachute, and roomier which appeals to many and being faster and more slippery than 160HP or 180HP C172 makes them more demanding and less forgiving initial trainer.  Anyway, a lot of opinions on training in a SR20 versus C172 which is a topic for another forum.

I say older model as I’m told the newer SR-20 is 215 HP making it high performance? 

[MooneyMitch]

Further information being disseminated on the field is pilot was performing poor quality touch & goes prior to crash.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

I say older model as I’m told the newer SR-20 is 215 HP making it high performance? 

Yes, so right, forgot about the switch to Lyc IO-390 in '17. Can't say I've seen any that new on the training flight lines yet. 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I did not know older SR-20’s were used for PP training.

Not PP training but Ecole de l’Air (French AF school) now use SR20 & SR22 for elementary pilot training, as always with long 9000ft military runway, calm pattern and 1-1 controller-pilot in theory you can teach PP flying in any aircraft 

SR20 is adequate for PP training but it may not be very wise in a typical school pattern mixing all aircraft types with pattern speeds ranging from 40kts to 110kts? distraction & fast & slow don’t mix well for initial training...

In my home-base on a busy training day it is 4*C152, 2*Arrow, 2*DA42, 1*PC12 all flying the same pattern, surely not a day to send student in Cirrus trying to fit in the queue at 70kts...

Edited May 21, 2020 by Ibra

[Skybrd]

Terrible accident. I have seen some internet pictures of the wreckage and didn’t see any wings. I saw foam but no wings. I wonder if there was a structure inflight failure. The falling airplane mass in the video seemed to be traveling at extreme speed maybe too much for the parachute. This is going to hit the cirrus airplane group hard since they boast about extra safety having a parachute. I’m probably all wrong but thats what I perceive. Btw, I’m based at Santa Maria. 

[aviatoreb]

This is the worst case for the parachute plane, which is the low altitude incident where there is not a lot of time decide and then get a hand on the emergency chute lever.  It is impressive that clearly the pilot did get his hand on the lever although not able to save the day.  

In this particular incident, the autopilot envelope protection function may have been better suited to save the day by helping to prevent the incident in the first place.  Do the new Cirrus have that feature?

Edited May 22, 2020 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

As we saw with the snow birds...

There is going to be a minimum altitude in which anyone can expect the parachute to work...

Any variation from horizontal and level, takes away from the best conditions...

The entire fall will take Less than about 1.5 seconds... (Alexa doing the math)

Compare to Irish’s math above...

Any time deciding... or pushing the throttle... or getting your hand to the red handle... takes up a good part of the 1.5 seconds you have left...

The biggest drawback of the parachute... it doesn’t work at TPA very reliably... physics of a Stall happens way too quickly compared to human actions... Or inactions...

Our biggest danger comes with the turn from base to final... from that height, the fall will be less than a second...
 

A heart-attack seems to last forever compared to that time... (A good Heart-attack allows you enough time to make a friend, and have them call 911, select your new friend wisely, you don’t have enough time to make two friends)
 

Engine out over inhospitable terrain... bring a chute...

Stalling at TPA... have the essential prayer memorized... it will be too late to reach for the rosary, or prayer book...
 

Prayers for the lost airman...

Best regards,

-a-

[brndiar]

Wind contition at the time of the accident? Tailwind on base leg?

RIP airmann..

m

[steingar]

Get too slow in the pattern and any airplane can bite.  Student or no, one must be proficient with one's airmanship.  The laws of physics are most unforgiving.  RIP Airman.

[MooneyMitch]

9 hours ago, brndiar said:

Wind contition at the time of the accident? Tailwind on base leg?

RIP airmann..

m

I do believe the wind was relatively calm at that time of the morning.

[MooneyMitch]

36 minutes ago, steingar said:

Get too slow in the pattern and any airplane can bite.  Student or no, one must be proficient with one's airmanship.  The laws of physics are most unforgiving.  RIP Airman.

It may be silly, but in my subconscious always during takeoff/ landing phase, my airplane is simply 1500 lbs of dead weight ready to drop like a rock........ that thought always keeps me mindful ( that and the memory of my basic flight instructor yelling in my ear on the dangers) .......so far so good !

[Skates97]

I was talking with my wife about this crash yesterday. I was talking about how a stall/spin in the pattern is almost guaranteed to not be survivable. She asked "So what do you do?" I said "Don't get too slow, don't over bank/load up the wing in a bank, stay coordinated."

I'm still looking for that perfect flight where I didn't either make some kind of a mistake or have something I wish I had done just a little better. Fortunately none of the mistakes have had serious consequences. I do have some things I put into the "Never let it happen" category as the pilot. A stall in the pattern is in the "Never let it happen" category. I can recover from a lot of things in the pattern either by making adjustments or going around, too high/too fast/overshoot final, those are recoverable. A stall in the pattern, not so much.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

I do believe the wind was relatively calm at that time of the morning.

Yep, I looked at the day of and there was essentially no wind at the field or at 3000' altitude.  A prefect CAVU day!

Edited May 22, 2020 by kortopates

[bonal]

This is so tragic, when I read that this was a student pilot possibly on his first cross country solo it reminded me of how elated I felt flying in my 150 on that most memorable flight watching the clouds pass as I managed all the requirements of completing my flight successfully being fully aware of the consequences of making even a minor error.  The flood of emotions that I had as I stood alone on the ramp of an airport next to my airplane just taking it all in the isolation and silence of a small remote airport was defining.  I imagine this poor soul must have felt the same until things started going wrong.

i do subscribe to the notion that certain airframes are much safer for training purposes but that there is no reason one cannot train in a more challenging type but with that there is a much greater need for proper instructions and a much higher requirement for an instructor to be certain their students are confident with the higher demands of a high performance airplane.

Rest in peace pilot with prayers for family and friends 

[kortopates]

10 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

She asked "So what do you do?" I said "Don't get too slow, don't over bank/load up the wing in a bank, stay coordinated."

I'm still looking for that perfect flight where I didn't either make some kind of a mistake or have something I wish I had done just a little better. Fortunately none of the mistakes have had serious consequences. I do have some things I put into the "Never let it happen" category as the pilot. A stall in the pattern is in the "Never let it happen" category. I can recover from a lot of things in the pattern either by making adjustments or going around, too high/too fast/overshoot final, those are recoverable. A stall in the pattern, not so much.

Good plan and very wise to always critique yourself. But I think sometimes we scare folks from banking in the pattern; especially when they want to standard rate turns in the pattern. So personally I have no problem "over" banking and not staying coordinated as long as we're keeping the wing unloaded. Instead for me and what I teach is: don't pull back on the yoke and don't skid in addition to don't get too slow.  I'll happily slip away as needed; especially on a short approach. And when we do need to recover from when we err and get too slow, PUSH first to recover as you are simultaneously adding power. Pitch is instantaneous, power is not.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Good plan and very wise to always critique yourself. But I think sometimes we scare folks from banking in the pattern; especially when they want to standard rate turns in the pattern. So personally I have no problem "over" banking and not staying coordinated as long as we're keeping the wing unloaded. Instead for me and what I teach is: don't pull back on the yoke and don't skid in addition to don't get too slow.  I'll happily slip away as needed; especially on a short approach. And when we do need to recover from when we err and get too slow, PUSH first to recover as you are simultaneously adding power. Pitch is instantaneous, power is not.

Standard rate turns in the pattern are fine. I used to go to 30º in the Cessner, but not in my Mooney--ignoring the PC Release Button helps remind me to not overbank. If I'm too close, or missed the crosswind component when turning base, I just hold the same bank angle and aim back towards the runway; if I can't get there, a Go Around is easy and I pay more attention to my ground track the second time. [Doesn't happen often, but I won't say "never."]

[MooneyMitch]

8 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Good plan and very wise to always critique yourself. But I think sometimes we scare folks from banking in the pattern; especially when they want to standard rate turns in the pattern. So personally I have no problem "over" banking and not staying coordinated as long as we're keeping the wing unloaded. Instead for me and what I teach is: don't pull back on the yoke and don't skid in addition to don't get too slow.  I'll happily slip away as needed; especially on a short approach. And when we do need to recover from when we err and get too slow, PUSH first to recover as you are simultaneously adding power. Pitch is instantaneous, power is not.

So very interesting you mention PUSH as you add power......a friend close by the crash site told me she heard power increase rapidly just prior to crash.  This tells me, along with chute deployment, the pilot was attempting to correct...... just too damn late.

This crash is daunting for me as well.  So sad.

[brndiar]

Citat from Langenwiesche's Stick$Rudder:

Epitaph: "He did not know he was pulling the stalling lever."

It is easy to be safe.

 

[Ibra]

 

50 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

said "Don't get too slow, don't over bank/load up the wing in a bank, stay coordinated."

Yes it is one of these "never let it happen", there is no way to recover from base & final spins (unlike recovering from departure & go-around), main emphasis is being able to recognise and act early or better never get there in the first place,

First issue is distraction and second is loss of visual references when flying low (if you bank/pitch 45deg at 500agl all you see is ground or sky not the line in between), it is hard to train anyone for these at 3000ft agl, the only defense in the pattern is mainly about "watch pitch & bank & speed" but this will fail sometime under pressure 

One can try throwing few approach where student fly pattern by fixating his eyes on fictitious traffic on the runway numbers or somewhere else on the left window (not looking over the nose or watching speed) while RHS is monitoring speed & pitch & bank & traffic, it is an eye opening experience on spatial disorientation and loss of speed & attitude and may explain why we pilots fall out of the air in a blue sky days

Also flying with other slow & fast traffic with distraction in the pattern is not something chutes can solve...

RIP airman 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b7422c040f0b60c3b7848fe/Cirrus_SR22_N844MS_09-18.pdf

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Ibra

[kortopates]

10 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

So very interesting you mention PUSH as you add power......a friend close by the crash site told me she heard power increase rapidly just prior to crash.  This tells me, along with chute deployment, the pilot was attempting to correct...... just too damn late.

This crash is daunting for me as well.  So sad.

I honestly doubt your friend heard the pilot add power. Instead it was just the noise of the prop as the plane rolled over inverted and coming nearly straight down. The doppler shift gives the appearance of increasing in pitch as it approaches the witness (https://intelligentsoundengineering.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/physically-derived-sound-synthesis-model-of-a-propeller/ )

Witness's report very similar accounts whenever they see a plane fall out of the sky. More likely IMO the power was untouched as pilot was very busy reaching for and pulling the chute while upside down.  

[MooneyMitch]

14 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I honestly doubt your friend heard the pilot add power. Instead it was just the noise of the prop as the plane rolled over inverted and coming nearly straight down. The doppler shift gives the appearance of increasing in pitch as it approaches the witness (https://intelligentsoundengineering.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/physically-derived-sound-synthesis-model-of-a-propeller/ )

Witness's report very similar accounts whenever they see a plane fall out of the sky. More likely IMO the power was untouched as pilot was very busy reaching for and pulling the chute while upside down.  

I should have been more clear regarding the added power description............her words were that the plane was doing funny things overhead in level flight and then suddenly it sounded as though rapid full power was added prior to the plane moving out of her sight.  Within a few seconds, she heard the crash explosion.  Of course, this is from a witness and not fact at all.