50% increase in insurance over last year

[PT20J]

If the price seems too high, it might be good to remember that insurance is a form of risk management whereby a financial risk is, for a fee (premium), transferred to another party. If you can't get the premium down to your liking, you might consider taking on more of the risk personally. Since the hull is insured for an agreed value, you could insure it for a lesser amount than actual value. For instance, say the airplane is worth $40K. If you could afford a $10K loss, you could insure it for $30K instead of the full value. In the unlikely event that you total it, you're out $10K. The risk, of course is that if the damage was slightly over $30K it would still probably get scrapped when maybe it could have been fixed.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

Just wanted to share my insurance numbers.

Insured with Global thru Falcon

2018 Liability $175+60k hull $624=$799

2019 Liability $175+60k hull $734=$909

2020 Liability $184+60k hull $1094=$1278

17000 hrs, ATP, CFII, Seaplane and lots of tail dragger time, 15000+ in retracts, 300 in type, 70 in the last year, multiple heavy jet type ratings, no accidents or claims and I’m still considered young at 47. Hangar as well. 

The hull coverage amount is not linear, a 120k hull doesn’t cost twice what the 60k hull does, more like 30% more. For this reason I would not underinsure your plane unless you drop hull coverage entirely.

[PT20J]

23 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The hull coverage amount is not linear, a 120k hull doesn’t cost twice what the 60k hull does, more like 30% more. For this reason I would not underinsure your plane unless you drop hull coverage entirely.

My understanding is that it is linear, but perhaps @Parker_Woodruff could answer that. Just to be clear, I'm not recommending that a person underinsure, but it is an option. Another option might be to see if you could negotiate a deductible in exchange for a reduced premium. I believe that the trend has been away from deductibles, but given the changes in the market, perhaps it is an option now.

Insurance is a product that we hope never to need. I know people who have lamented about all the money they "wasted" on insurance because they had the good fortune to never have a claim. For me, the greatest payback from good insurance coverage is a good night's sleep. I especially don't want to collect on my health insurance!

Skip

[PT20J]

I just received this year's quote:

Hull $170K, Liab $1MM smooth

$2173 last year, $2562 this year, $389 (17.9%) increase.

To put this in perspective, the current US inflation rate is less than 1% https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/. So with inflation so low, and the airplane insurance being a small part of my annual household expenses, this increase is lost in the noise. If oil prices stay depressed, I'll likely save much more than this on fuel this year. I think of expenses like I do investments -- it's not the single item that matters but rather the performance of the overall portfolio. 

Skip

[tmo]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

My understanding is that it is linear

For me it is linear within a given range of values - my insurance co charges a one percentage under 50k, another up to 100k and so on.  The percentage decreases as the value goes up, so it might even make sense to slightly over insure if close to the upper limit.  FWIW, I paid a little over 2100 EUR (about $2300) for 65k EUR hull and 6m EUR CSL (combined single limit, so I guess "smooth" in US speak).  Hull cost 1k EUR.  0 hours in Mooney, 0h in complex / retract / hpa.

[Ibra]

Premium with high hull & smooth values it goes up linear in pieces & decrease in %, on the low side it just flattens to some numbers instead of zero...

One can participate in their insurance and reduce the premium by either lowering hull & smooth and excess then cover top yourself or increase excess and increase hull & smooth and then cover the low yourslef, which one you would go for depends on how likely you will bend it? how often you bend it? and how deep you bend it? 

You have some of that information, insurers don't, but they don't care they have hundereds of other clients 

On thing to keep in mind, premiums we pay on average are somehow linked long-term performance of equity stock index and long dated treasury bonds, nothing to do with pilot/mx errors and accident claims

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ibra

[larrynimmo]

When I first bought my plane in 2017 I was paying 2500 a year for hull value of 65k...when I changed the engine and upgraded electronics I raised hull value to 135k and my premium went up by about 450 a year. 
 

at purchase

june, 2017= 2450...student p hv65

starr

June, 2018 = 2450 120h p hv 65

falcon

Oct, 2018 = 2900  250h p hv135

Falcon

June, 2019= 1960  325h p hv 135

global

June, 2020=1918 550h IFR p hv 135
Old republic

[ArtVandelay]

Just wanted to share my insurance numbers.
Insured with Global thru Falcon
2018 Liability $175+60k hull $624=$799
2019 Liability $175+60k hull $734=$909
2020 Liability $184+60k hull $1094=$1278
17000 hrs, ATP, CFII, Seaplane and lots of tail dragger time, 15000+ in retracts, 300 in type, 70 in the last year, multiple heavy jet type ratings, no accidents or claims and I’m still considered young at 47. Hangar as well. 

The reason I said it wasn’t linear is because my hull coverage is twice that above, same insurance company, same plane type, Im older with much less experience and my 2020 hull coverage is only ~30% more

[Parker_Woodruff]

12 hours ago, PT20J said:

My understanding is that it is linear, but perhaps @Parker_Woodruff could answer that. Just to be clear, I'm not recommending that a person underinsure, but it is an option. Another option might be to see if you could negotiate a deductible in exchange for a reduced premium. I believe that the trend has been away from deductibles, but given the changes in the market, perhaps it is an option now.

 

I now have the option with one market to quote 5% or 10% deductibles.

Hull values are not linear.  I quoted a $95K Mooney at more than 2% of hull value yesterday and that could be dropped to under 1.7% if he went to $100K. (Ended up being about $200-300 cheaper for $5K add'l hull coverage)

Some companies will charge with blocks of incrementally lower rates as hull values increase.  Other companies just assign a lower rate to the whole value as thresholds are crossed.

[PT20J]

Well, at least my auto insurance is getting some relief. I just received this with my billing notice.

State Farm Mutual Returning $2 Billion Dividend to Auto Insurance Customers

On average most customers will see a 25% policy credit for the period March 20 - May 31.

In an effort to help customers during these challenging times, State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Company, the nation’s largest auto insurer, is announcing up to a $2 billion dividend that will go to its auto insurance customers. With schools and businesses closed, and many of us sheltering in our homes, people are driving less right now, so we’re returning value to customers as we anticipate fewer auto claims.

Customers do not need to take any action to receive this dividend, which will appear as a credit on their auto policy.

The dividend is part of the Good Neighbor Relief Program that also includes customer payment options and neighborhood philanthropic relief. This is the single largest dividend paid to customers in our company’s history. As the national leader in auto, home, and individual life insurance, State Farm has the financial strength necessary to help millions of customers and communities recover from the unexpected.

On average, State Farm Mutual auto customers can expect to receive a credit of about 25 percent of premium for the time period March 20 through May 31; exact percentages will vary by state. Every State Farm Mutual auto insurance customer will receive credits applied against bills beginning as early as June. We’ll continue to monitor our loss experience and respond appropriately.

“State Farm is returning value through a dividend to our customers,” said Chairman, President and CEO Michael L. Tipsord. “We insure more cars than anyone and we see from our claims activity people are driving less. This dividend is one of the ways we’re working to help our customers during this unprecedented situation.”

We’re committed to giving back not just to our customers, but to communities where we live and work by providing $5 million in donations across the country. These efforts are in direct response to COVID-19 and are focused on relief and recovery efforts.

State Farm is here to help our customers in these challenging times. We are making decisions that balance short-term solutions with maintaining our ability to remain financially strong for our customers to keep our promises now and in the future.

We encourage customers facing financial challenges to call their State Farm agent. Agents are working with State Farm customers one-on-one providing payment options.

[FloridaMan]

My M20F went up and the Rocket went down, so it’s pretty close to the total for last year. 

[bonal]

Lots of things out there that will threaten GA. Reducing manufacturing choices. And the inability to find an insurance carrier or premiums that are too costly especially for people who want to become pilots and airplane owners.  As a VFR guy I found not too many options and one can't become instrument rated until they get their PPL unless they do the whole thing in rentals. Ours went up about 30% from last year. No changes or claims.

[mike_elliott]

Last Oct mine went from 3300 to 3900. Boy, I cant wait for this October  Oh, I dont even own a plane right now

 

 

[bradp]

Just a reminder for the group- liability insurance is variable - if your are mentioning rates  include what type of liability you’re talking about.  

[toto]

Minor side question... Has anyone ever seen a premium drop with recent Wings credits?

I've seen many references to this (I think Avemco in particular says they'll do something for Wings participants). But I've never even seen a spot in a renewal form for Wings credit, and I'm not sure if it's a real thing. 

[carusoam]

Always good to get credit for training... attending Mooney Summit... or getting an IR...

Hard to tell what it does to your rate...

See if Parker can do some color...

Best regards,

-a-

[larrynimmo]

Just paid my 2020 insurance invoice for Old Republic...FYI...

 

liability=$266

physical damage=$1,660

hull value 135k

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 5/16/2020 at 8:07 PM, toto said:

Minor side question... Has anyone ever seen a premium drop with recent Wings credits?

I've seen many references to this (I think Avemco in particular says they'll do something for Wings participants). But I've never even seen a spot in a renewal form for Wings credit, and I'm not sure if it's a real thing. 

Starr is one company that will give a training credit if you complete Basic, Advanced, or Master WINGS.  They also accept MAPA Safety.

If you have done some type of formal training in the past year we can make a request for a training discount with them (case-by-case basis).

[salty]

Just as another data point, I just renewed and upped my hull by 20% due to panel upgrades and my rate went up less than 20%. I do not have IR, but I got a new rating last year (PP glider) and flew 180 hours with 108 in type last year. I think hours last year is a key factor.

[StevenL757]

On 5/10/2020 at 9:51 PM, MikeOH said:

I don't know about tornadoes, but I thought Nall accident report data has shown a decline for the past several years.

Not for Mooneys unfortunately.  This report from an earlier thread shows Mooneys as ranking 5th out of 33 just for gear-up landings.  When - and if - you add other accident and incident data to this as an aggregate, I'm sure Mooney rises on  the list...sadly-enough.  These are some of the main reasons we're all suffering with higher rates.

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::

Steve

[toto]

4 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Starr is one company that will give a training credit if you complete Basic, Advanced, or Master WINGS.  They also accept MAPA Safety.

If you have done some type of formal training in the past year we can make a request for a training discount with them (case-by-case basis).

Interesting. Thank you.

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Not for Mooneys unfortunately.  This report from an earlier thread shows Mooneys as ranking 5th out of 33 just for gear-up landings.  When - and if - you add other accident and incident data to this as an aggregate, I'm sure Mooney rises on  the list...sadly-enough.  These are some of the main reasons we're all suffering with higher rates.

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::

Steve

It would be really interesting to know...
 

If the act of being an MSer... helps minimize the chance of having a GU landing... 

Thousands of Mooney pilots, that Really know... and discuss...

• The cause of many GUs...   (high workload, distraction, Multi-tasking....)
• How to avoid GUs...   (Checklist, Gumps, green light before landing...)
• The limitations of the human brain...  (Limitations under stress, and Simple high work loads...)
• Not to trust the memory that says the gear is down...   (Memory swapped in from previous landing...)
• Not to trust the guy next to you has put them down...     (CFI, other Mooney pilot, DPE, The man who walked on water millennia ago)
• Go arounds are free...   (comparatively speaking...)

Anyone can drop the ball...  (Part of the honor of being human...)

MSers won’t be saying.... “how did that happen?”...

Unfortunately, it won’t help you feel better knowing how it happened...  

PP thoughts only, not a cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Not for Mooneys unfortunately.  This report from an earlier thread shows Mooneys as ranking 5th out of 33 just for gear-up landings.  When - and if - you add other accident and incident data to this as an aggregate, I'm sure Mooney rises on  the list...sadly-enough.  These are some of the main reasons we're all suffering with higher rates.

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::

Steve

I was under the impression rates were up significantly for all GA, not just Mooneys.

@Parker_Woodruff

What say you, Parker?

[Parker_Woodruff]

48 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I was under the impression rates were up significantly for all GA, not just Mooneys.

@Parker_Woodruff

What say you, Parker?

All GA

[MikeOH]

Just now, Parker_Woodruff said:

All GA

Thanks!