ADS-B Non-Compliance in Rule Airspace

[MooneyMitch]

FYI.....................the below information is from our recent FAAST meeting at Santa Maria Airport.

One speaker was Santa Barbara ATC [Class C].  The controller, when asked about ADS-B non-compliance aircraft within SBA Class C stated that at this point, all aircraft have been compliant.  Then asked if a non-compliant situation arose, he did say that they [ATC] were not the "police".    However, further clarification on that statement from the controller, he stated that they [SBA ATC] were obligated to report the aircraft to FSDO. 

SBA ATC is NOT the police, but they have to tell the police !

 

[Hank]

You're supposed to call for permission, 1-24 hours before the flight. When (if?) I have to do that, I'll let you know how it goes. ATL wouldn't let me inside the Bravo anyway, and getting to the other side is the closest I come to rule airspace . . . .  I just can't land at Falcon Field and have Spruce come pick me up anymore, it's under the Bravo. But 6A2 is outside and still pretty close.

[Bob - S50]

SBA is Class C

[MooneyMitch]

30 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

SBA is Class C

Uh, yeah, that's what I said...............Class C.............wink, wink, wink......

Correction.   Thank you.

 

[GeeBee]

Deviations are for one time ferry for maintenance and not for non-equipped aircraft. The FAA has been clear on that from the get go.

ATC is not the police, but I will tell you what. Every time a Part 121 aircraft executes a go-around ATC informs the FSDO. That is why Part 121 Captains are required to write up go-arounds, in part to answer any inquiry from a passenger, but also to inform flight operations so they can answer any questions from the FSDO.

 

 

[PT20J]

During a tour of NORCAL TRACON a few years ago I asked what they do about inadvertent incursions of the class B - someone squawking 1200 that they're not talking to cutting a corner for instance. The manager said that if it doesn't cause a conflict they don't care and they are busy and don't need any extra paperwork...BUT there is a quality control group off somewhere that has a video feed and watches over the controllers and if they notice it, TRACON gets a call and they have to follow up. 

[MooneyMitch]

Let’s see how this all evolves.  I can’t imagine pilots are going to intentionally break the rules on this.

I believe we’re compliant by nature . 

[Hank]

11 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Let’s see how this all evolves.  I can’t image pilots are going to intentionally break the rules on this.

I believe we’re compliant by nature . 

Cowboys aren't pilots, and pilots aren't cowboys? Your experience doesn't match mine.

[carusoam]

The large federal organizations can’t chase everybody....

So...  they like to use one really famous person to make an example of...

Don’t be that guy... 

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

[Dreamlifter]

Do I have to declare an emergency when returning to my home airport under the edge of Class B airspace when my transponder failed enroute?

Personally I'm staying underneath the floors and not bothering anyone to get home and figure out what happened to my transponder. 

What would you do?

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Dreamlifter said:

Do I have to declare an emergency when returning to my home airport under the edge of Class B airspace when my transponder failed enroute?

Personally I'm staying underneath the floors and not bothering anyone to get home and figure out what happened to my transponder. 

What would you do?

That does not meet the definition of an emergency and if you declared you would most likely get a call from the FSDO to explain it. The proper thing to do would be to contact ATC before penetrating the Mode-C veil and inform them of the situation. They're not likely to care and you would be legal flying beneath the Class B unless they told you to stay clear. 

Skip

[Dreamlifter]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

That does not meet the definition of an emergency and if you declared you would most likely get a call from the FSDO to explain it. The proper thing to do would be to contact ATC before penetrating the Mode-C veil and inform them of the situation. They're not likely to care and you would be legal flying beneath the Class B unless they told you to stay clear. 

Skip

The "declare an emergency" statement was made facetiously.  In my 45 years of flying civilian, military, and 33 years of airline flying I like common sense. So just being a primary target with a non transmitting transponder you would call ATC on an already congested frequency and high workload area just to tell them your transponder failed and your heading to your home base airport? I disagree, I think I'll announce my position and intentions on CTAF at my home field and get the transponder taken care of. If an explanation is requested from the FAA then my actions as PIC would be submitted along with the maintenance actions taken annotated in the logbook. If I have to fly to another avionics shop off the field I'll go to the web site and follow the procedure for flying under the Class B veil to get the transponder fixed.

[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, Dreamlifter said:

The "declare an emergency" statement was made facetiously.  In my 45 years of flying civilian, military, and 33 years of airline flying I like common sense. So just being a primary target with a non transmitting transponder you would call ATC on an already congested frequency and high workload area just to tell them your transponder failed and your heading to your home base airport? I disagree, I think I'll announce my position and intentions on CTAF at my home field and get the transponder taken care of. If an explanation is requested from the FAA then my actions as PIC would be submitted along with the maintenance actions taken annotated in the logbook. If I have to fly to another avionics shop off the field I'll go to the web site and follow the procedure for flying under the Class B veil to get the transponder fixed.

I’m not arguing with you. I just answered your “what would you do question” based on my understanding of what FARs 91.215 and 91.225 require. I see no reason to violate the rules just to reduce frequency congestion, but that’s just me.

[Yetti]

So how do you know your transponder is fritzing?   Say Skybeacon and King 76A.    The best you have is the orange light is not going off.   You fly home squaking 1200 to your under class B uncontrolled field.

A do they know you are there?

B do they know who you are?

 

[Dreamlifter]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

I’m not arguing with you. I just answered your “what would you do question” based on my understanding of what FARs 91.215 and 91.225 require. I see no reason to violate the rules just to reduce frequency congestion, but that’s just me.

I agree that Class C is a little different than Class B. With Class C I would call the TRACON and advise of the transponder malfunction to give them a heads up what my intentions are. Class C airspace deals with General Aviation traffic much more than the Class B folks. With Class B and my home field being on the edge of the airspace I personally am more cognizant of local traffic around several small airfields in close proximity rather than diverting my attention to talk to the big city approach control when they could care less if I'm under the floor of their airspace. Thanks for the qualifier of what you would do. The reason I brought this up is that we are always thinking of the what if scenarios and look to our fellow MS community to get different viewpoints and advice. Let's hope that none of us have this kind of transponder failure where you are certain that you cannot XMIT Mode C and  / or ADS-B when in rule airspace.

[steingar]

If you stop squawking in rule airspace you're likely to get a nastygram from the FAA.  I suspect strongly that if you penetrate rule airspace without the appropriate equipment or clearance the sanction will be considerably harsher.

[Bob - S50]

I'm a bit surprised the brain trust hasn't already brought this up:

FAR 91.225.(g)(1)

(g) Requests for ATC authorized deviations from the requirements of this section must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

     (1) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative ADS-B Out, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

To me, and I'm pretty sure I read it elsewhere too, that means if your transponder quits while airborne you can ask ATC over the radio for permission to fly through their airspace.

[thinwing]

On 1/21/2020 at 1:46 PM, Bob - S50 said:

I'm a bit surprised the brain trust hasn't already brought this up:

FAR 91.225.(g)(1)

(g) Requests for ATC authorized deviations from the requirements of this section must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

     (1) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative ADS-B Out, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

To me, and I'm pretty sure I read it elsewhere too, that means if your transponder quits while airborne you can ask ATC over the radio for permission to fly through their airspace.

This

[Jim Peace]

On 1/18/2020 at 9:10 PM, GeeBee said:

That is why Part 121 Captains are required to write up go-arounds,

source please......

[Culver LFA]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:03 PM, Hank said:

You're supposed to call for permission, 1-24 hours before the flight. When (if?) I have to do that, I'll let you know how it goes. ATL wouldn't let me inside the Bravo anyway, and getting to the other side is the closest I come to rule airspace . . . .  I just can't land at Falcon Field and have Spruce come pick me up anymore, it's under the Bravo. But 6A2 is outside and still pretty close.

Griffin (6A2) is still under the veil and a pretty good country road drive over to a Peachtree City. I think I’d use UPS before going that route by air & road.

I’m ADSB compliant 8.5 inside the mode C at 8GA9, between KFFC and 6A2. With all the training traffic flying between Newnan and Griffin, especially just north of me over Lake Horton, ADSB traffic is very, very nice to have.

[bob865]

I'm with @Yetti on this one.  Unless you have one of the new, computerized transponders with internal error checking and a big error message, your first indication you transponder failed is when ATC asks you to recycle your transponder or similar.  I think if you're VFR, not on flight following, you'd never know your transponder actually failed.  Heck, you probably wouldn't even know until the first time you tried to pick up flight following and they said they couldn't see you.  Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

[Mooneymite]

On 1/20/2020 at 11:44 PM, Yetti said:

So how do you know your transponder is fritzing?   Say Skybeacon and King 76A.    The best you have is the orange light is not going off.   You fly home squaking 1200 to your under class B uncontrolled field.

A do they know you are there?

B do they know who you are?

I would say that they will probably see you via raw radar, but won't know who you are and might very well make the assumption you are in an aircraft which was originally certificated with no electrical system.  I live under the Class B and there are lots of airplanes that fly in and out of our grass field with neither a mode C transponder, nor ADS-B and do so perfectly legally.  ATC raw radar has no way of knowing and an investigation would be expensive and non productive.  ("Honest, Mr. FAA, I ain't seen a thing.")

An aircraft flying at 200 kts beneath the class B without a transponder, or ADS-B might peak their curiosity, but otherwise...no.

Mostly this whole ASD-B issue will be voluntary compliance rather than enforcement in my opinion.

[MooneyMitch]

Any recent experiences anyone........regarding encountering flights within rule airspace with a non-ADS-B compliant aircraft?  

Anyone aware of being reported for non-compliance?   Anyone received a warning from ATC for non-compliance? Anyone asked for, and received a waiver?  Anyone denied a waiver?

At our EAA meeting today, a local flight instructor said that asking for, and receiving an ADS-B waiver is very easy, and very easily granted.

 

 

 

[aaronk25]

I made a couple flights into Chicago and Minneapolis airspace since the start of the new year with my portable SkyGuardTWX adsb-out synced with my mode C spitting out the same sqwak code.

I asked Chicago and Mpls if they could see my adsb, they both made a comment that they had to flip screens to see it and workload didn’t permit. It’s since been in the avionics shop getting the real system installed for the past couple weeks 345 and the rest of the goodies.
My guess is they aren’t using it yet for primarily methods.

RST primary radar was down and the ya said I might be able to give you flight following, hold on a min, yep I see your adsb......went on flight without a event. So not sure what the deal is with adsb. I will now be compliant, but they sure made a lot of stink about getting this all installed for a system I don’t think their using, yet......

[midlifeflyer]

ATC has made it clear they are not the ADS-B police. Which basically means, so long as there isn't a problem where the lack of ADS-B is a factor or discovered as part of the investigation, there might not be a ding.

of course, before one thinks that makes it ok, bear in mind that's also what happens with pilots who fly unlicensed, non-current, IFR when not rated, with no medical, in unairworthy aircraft.