j3gq Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 I have seen all the posts on the subject, that Plessey is no more, and Eaton actuators cost an arm and a leg, but ... with so many Mooneys still flying, is there no way that some company receives a PMA (or the like) and manufactures one hundred units ? and if that can't be done, is it because of - cost (hard to imagine) - technical complexity (harder to imagine) - or legal issues (e.g. Mooney doesn't give permission) ? Thanks ! any insight appreciated Quote
carusoam Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 OH and several Mooney dismantlers must be keeping the supply lines full... Do you need one? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Yetti Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 The are generally pretty durable. Other than also used as a flap motor on a citation, their is not a large market. Quote
j3gq Posted October 16, 2019 Author Report Posted October 16, 2019 I do! Two shops told me 'no joy', they wouldn't know where to find spares. Barnstormers etc no results either. And investing 24 grand into the Eaton replacement from Mooney is beyond reach. Would you have any suggestions, carusoam ? Quote
Yetti Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 What's broke on it. Rebuild the motor or replace the gears, it's not that hard. Quote
j3gq Posted October 16, 2019 Author Report Posted October 16, 2019 Hi yetti, any further insight welcome. In general I agree with you, the problem starts when the bird is already in the shop. And on the other hand, why did people back in 2000-2015 (see posts) pay premiums or tried to stock pile ? Or is this all about a part an IA can approve vs. a part he cannot see has been rebuilt or replaced ? Am I missing sth ? In my case it's the worn out gear and some other follow-up damage I cannot well describe at the moment. Best Regards Quote
ArtVandelay Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 What about Aeromotorsllc.com, they overhaul our electric fuel pumps? 1 Quote
EricJ Posted October 16, 2019 Report Posted October 16, 2019 I think a lot of stuff like this, e.g., the gears, lend themselves to owner-produced parts. With the increased access to CNC machines as well as additive manufacturing, really only one person creating a drawing and sharing the drawing will enable anybody to take the drawing (or design file) and a suitable material selection to a fabricator and have the part made. There've been a few things identified that would be good for this, including travel boards, actuator gears, etc. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 17, 2019 Report Posted October 17, 2019 In the recycled parts arena, we have... @Alan Fox @acpartswhse @SheryLoewen Click on the blue name card and find their private message button let them know what you need with as much detail as you can... Also check with your local MSC, if you don’t have one... may I suggest... Lasar... speak with Dan... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted October 17, 2019 Report Posted October 17, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 6:36 PM, carusoam said: OH and several Mooney dismantlers must be keeping the supply lines full... Do you need one? Best regards, -a- Expand They’re life limited parts. Not sure I’d want a used one and then have to do it again. -Robert 1 Quote
j3gq Posted October 17, 2019 Author Report Posted October 17, 2019 On 10/17/2019 at 2:21 PM, RobertGary1 said: They’re life limited parts. Not sure I’d want a used one and then have to do it again. -Robert Expand Hello Robert, Where does one find information or requirements that these are life limited parts, and why do they not show up in rotating items lists (as far as I know) as life limited ? What part in the actuator does actually deteriorate with time ? Any further information appreciated !! Best Quote
RobertGary1 Posted October 17, 2019 Report Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) On 10/17/2019 at 2:46 PM, j3gq said: Hello Robert, Where does one find information or requirements that these are life limited parts, and why do they not show up in rotating items lists (as far as I know) as life limited ? What part in the actuator does actually deteriorate with time ? Any further information appreciated !! Best Expand AD 75-23-04 requires 200 hour inspection for Dukes gears and replacement based on measurment. ITT have the same gears, but no AD so most find it wise to follow the AD with ITT too. The gears wear down. I've replaced mine a couple times over the decades. They are sometimes easy to buy from the MSC and sometimes unavailable. Replacing the old "fast" years with slower 40:1 gears reduces the issue but makes the gear move 1/2 speed. It doesn't null the AD though. -Robert Edited October 17, 2019 by RobertGary1 1 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted October 17, 2019 Report Posted October 17, 2019 On 10/17/2019 at 4:20 PM, RobertGary1 said: AD 75-23-04 requires 200 hour inspection for Dukes gears and replacement based on measurment. ITT have the same gears, but no AD so most find it wise to follow the AD with ITT too. The gears wear down. I've replaced mine a couple times over the decades. They are sometimes easy to buy from the MSC and sometimes unavailable. Replacing the old "fast" years with slower 40:1 gears reduces the issue but makes the gear move 1/2 speed. It doesn't null the AD though. -Robert I noticed no mention of the EatonsTom Quote
Yetti Posted October 18, 2019 Report Posted October 18, 2019 On 10/17/2019 at 2:46 PM, j3gq said: Hello Robert, Where does one find information or requirements that these are life limited parts, and why do they not show up in rotating items lists (as far as I know) as life limited ? What part in the actuator does actually deteriorate with time ? Any further information appreciated !! Best Expand Call a real Mooney Service Center or the factory. SWTA http://www.swta.net/ It would be good to have the parts number before you call. Eaton has catalogs online. Exploded diagrams are fun. Also the Mooney Parts and Service Manual. 1 Quote
j3gq Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) On 10/16/2019 at 8:34 PM, ArtVandelay said: What about Aeromotorsllc.com, they overhaul our electric fuel pumps? Expand I am working on this, not sure (yet) they are interested, but they are looking at pictures I provided. Will report back in a few days. If anybody had ideas what other companies might be able to do such a job, please report it here. Edited October 19, 2019 by j3gq Quote
j3gq Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Posted October 19, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 6:36 PM, carusoam said: OH and several Mooney dismantlers must be keeping the supply lines full... Do you need one? Best regards, -a- Expand checked with 4 of them, so far no results Quote
j3gq Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Posted October 19, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 7:52 PM, Yetti said: What's broke on it. Rebuild the motor or replace the gears, it's not that hard. Expand I will happily look into this, but let me ask you this, would this solve the no-back-spring issue, if your actuator has been used for 20 years and 3000 hours ? I doubt one can merely inspect the spring, and go ahead ? please let me know what you think. Quote
j3gq Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Posted October 19, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 1:04 AM, Yetti said: t would be good to have the parts number before you call. Eaton has catalogs online. Exploded diagrams are fun. Also the Mooney Parts and Service Manual. Expand I found the Eaton website(s), some part numbers, etc. but otherwise very little information - no catalog, and certainly no exploded diagrams. Any chance you might be able to help me ? Quote
Yetti Posted October 19, 2019 Report Posted October 19, 2019 Is your backspring broken or is your IA making you replace it? Quote
j3gq Posted October 19, 2019 Author Report Posted October 19, 2019 On 10/19/2019 at 1:59 PM, Yetti said: Is your backspring broken or is your IA making you replace it? Expand Hello Yetti, I have seen these blogs. There are just a lot of opinions and a bit of confusion, but few facts. My no-back-spring isn't broken and the IA doesn't care, as you probably guessed Let me summarize what I believe to know. A failure of the nbs (in Eaton or GEC actuator) will damage the actuator and impede further movement. When this happens on ground (say your annual) ... you're grounded. If it happens in flight the emergency gear extension will not work and you are having a not so cheap landing. Does any nbs last forever ? Hardly. Does it typically last 50 years or 10,000 gear cycles ? We don't know. Have there been failure cases early in life? Yes, a few. Nobody has the numbers. Here is the caveat. If I owned a Mooney with Eaton act. I'd replace the nsb sooner or later but kept flying as you suggested. If I owned a Mooney with GEC/Plessey act., I would still keep flying but try to find an Eaton replacement within the next 500h (a plausible number, you choose yours). BUT ... if I got offered an otherwise really nice Mooney with GEC act., with 5000 hours and 5000 landings on the counter, and the SB never done ... I would ... hmm ... Here is my question to you: buy and pray ? Emphatically NO. You see, the buyer's take is very different from the owner's take. And that's where it gets interesting. Any buyer would want a solution before signing the bill of sale. And that forces all owners (= future seller ...) to look for solutions too. Which brings me back to the beginning of the blog. Thanks to all of you for your inputs. Quote
Yetti Posted October 19, 2019 Report Posted October 19, 2019 I have never been inside an Eaton. I have been inside an ITT Actuator. The ITT is very well built with machining similar to a fine firearm. You are going to cycle this say 150 times per year. The unanswered question was how many cycles the Engineer designed them for. Should we say 10,000. So there is your math. Can you replace the gears, have a brass disc machined? Yep. Proper maintenance of replacing the grease and maybe the gears? Also lubing the mains to reduce friction is a good thing. I would say the camshaft on a lycoming is a bigger risk and the same price to fix. 1 Quote
laytonl Posted October 20, 2019 Report Posted October 20, 2019 I had to replace the plessey gear motor in my 92 Mooney. I found a used Eaton and had it overhauled by Lasar. Don’t recall which salvage yard had the Eaton. Paid $2,000 for the core and then $2,500 for the Lasar overhaul, including no-back spring. Lee 1 1 Quote
Guest Posted October 20, 2019 Report Posted October 20, 2019 On 10/19/2019 at 1:59 PM, j3gq said: I found the Eaton website(s), some part numbers, etc. but otherwise very little information - no catalog, and certainly no exploded diagrams. Any chance you might be able to help me ? Expand I don’t know if this will help you. https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_instructions/sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf Clarence Quote
j3gq Posted October 20, 2019 Author Report Posted October 20, 2019 to Clarence, thanks for trying to help ! No, we are looking for information on the J-models with Eaton or Plessey actuators. The Dukes mentioned here were used on the vintage (pre-J) models. Quote
EricJ Posted October 20, 2019 Report Posted October 20, 2019 On 10/20/2019 at 10:51 AM, M20Doc said: I don’t know if this will help you. https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_instructions/sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf Clarence Expand I like how Figure 2 shows putting Loctite in the bearing. Quote
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