Steering play?

[Utah20Gflyer]

13 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do any of you guys know exactly where I can find information and diagrams on the steering “shims or bushings”?  My nose wheel is starting to get a decent amount of play in it and id like to read about it and possibly order any parts before the annual in January.  I’m hoping it is something less than a new steering horn/truss.

My maintenance manual has no info on play in the steering.  Parts manual shows several places with shims and bushings but isn’t specific?

Having gone through this in my last annual I'm not sure it would be prudent to order anything until you get it all apart and can measure everything.  In some cases you will be able to replace the standard bushings and in other cases you may need to use an oversize bushing.  It just depends on how the parts wore.   I had the same thought but ended up with a lot of extra parts and had to make several orders.  Might have been better to wait.  LASAR ships quickly if they have what you want. 

[Kelpro999]

On 11/6/2019 at 9:41 PM, cliffy said:

One more item to check while in there might be the 4 bushings

just aft of the bottom of the firewall that the rudder pedals rotate in.

They are AN3 bolts and if they are loose lots of play in the pedals is noted.

Can't see all 4 at one time but take the small firewall panel at the bottom of 

the firewall off  and you can see two of them (one each side). Move the pedals 

to check for play. I'll bet they have never been looked at for wear (or ever been lubricated).

In order to tighten

the two outboard ones you have to drill a 1/2" hole directly above them on the floor inside

up by the pedals. Don't worry its a non structural panel. Cover hole with silver high speed tape

when done. You'll need a ground down 3/8" box wrench to get in the hole and get around the 

bolt head. Grind it way down to a narrow ring around

the wrench head. Two man project as one has to be outside while one is scrunched up in the foot well inside. 

Use worm clamps to put it on the end of a long screw driver so you can reach the
bolt head easier. 

When you have the nose wheel off the ground lay under the wheel well and move the tire left and right 

and you'll see where there is play in the monkey motion linkage from pedals to nose wheel. If you have more than

a few degrees of left-right you have wear in the linkage. 

Good call, finding this thread years after replacing the upper structure, truss & horn due to wear and tube damage. The 8 second ride was down graded to very annoying wandering with some disconnect between pedals and nose wheel. Now during paint with the exhaust cavities removed, inspection found all four bolts loose. After tightening with heavily modified wrenches all or most of the pedal play has been eliminated while maintaining free movement. This should improve all ground handling situations when my project is complete. 
 
love finding good info from old topics 

[cliffy]

Glad it helped   I had to make modified wrenches also to finish mine. 

This is a spot that most people never think of. 

[Ragsf15e]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:46 AM, Utah20Gflyer said:

Having gone through this in my last annual I'm not sure it would be prudent to order anything until you get it all apart and can measure everything.  In some cases you will be able to replace the standard bushings and in other cases you may need to use an oversize bushing.  It just depends on how the parts wore.   I had the same thought but ended up with a lot of extra parts and had to make several orders.  Might have been better to wait.  LASAR ships quickly if they have what you want. 

I played with my nose truss this morning before flying.  With the nose solidly on the ground, I’ve circled where there appears to be some play.  The video link shows me moving around that part while  the nose wheel isn’t moving.

Anyone know if this is probably just bushings and shims?  I plan to look closer up on jacks at the upcoming annual.

Thanks,

Drew

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m4UzQPg7vC3k9Zb46

[carusoam]

Let’s invite @M20Doc to see how much wiggle is normal in the steering system…

Nice video showing motion in a lot of directions….

Best regards,

 -a-

[cliffy]

Typical wear pattern there 

You have play in the cross bolt ar4a of the upper Heim joint

You have play in the shimmed area to the right of what you are looking at and 

you have play in the area you are looking at namely the cross bolt area on the far left of the unit

Indications show a need for shims, new bolts and bushings in all areas.

You may also need the way upper Heim joint as its right end bore may be worn large.

The best way to see how bad it is is on jacks and move the nose wheel. Very easy to see that way

More than a few degrees of slop and it needs work. 

I had to rebuild mine several years ago and all those  areas needed attention.

Also look at your vertical nose gear BIG bolt. Check it for wear and slop. Only able while on jacks

There was an updated SB years ago changing the nose gear pivot bolts torque

It was set too high originally from the factory and they lowered the torque setting. 

This is one thing almost no one checks annually as the SB says. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

25 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Typical wear pattern there 

You have play in the cross bolt ar4a of the upper Heim joint

You have play in the shimmed area to the right of what you are looking at and 

you have play in the area you are looking at namely the cross bolt area on the far left of the unit

Indications show a need for shims, new bolts and bushings in all areas.

You may also need the way upper Heim joint as its right end bore may be worn large.

The best way to see how bad it is is on jacks and move the nose wheel. Very easy to see that way

More than a few degrees of slop and it needs work. 

I had to rebuild mine several years ago and all those  areas needed attention.

Also look at your vertical nose gear BIG bolt. Check it for wear and slop. Only able while on jacks

There was an updated SB years ago changing the nose gear pivot bolts torque

It was set too high originally from the factory and they lowered the torque setting. 

This is one thing almost no one checks annually as the SB says. 

 

Yep, it looked like it moved in each of the areas you said.  I’m going to have to prep my mechanic for this… not sure how long (if ever) it’s been since he’s taken apart one of these.  Thanks.

[Guest]

I’ve never seen a published limit on wear/play in the nose gear steering system.  That said you should try to remove as much as is practical, you’ll never remove it all due to the many joints in the system.

There are a number of service bulletins and service instructions affecting the nose gear, they are on the Mooney website under technical publications.  SB M20-169 and SI M20-109 are two to look at.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

Typical wear pattern there 

You have play in the cross bolt ar4a of the upper Heim joint

You have play in the shimmed area to the right of what you are looking at and 

you have play in the area you are looking at namely the cross bolt area on the far left of the unit

Indications show a need for shims, new bolts and bushings in all areas.

You may also need the way upper Heim joint as its right end bore may be worn large.

The best way to see how bad it is is on jacks and move the nose wheel. Very easy to see that way

More than a few degrees of slop and it needs work. 

I had to rebuild mine several years ago and all those  areas needed attention.

Also look at your vertical nose gear BIG bolt. Check it for wear and slop. Only able while on jacks

There was an updated SB years ago changing the nose gear pivot bolts torque

It was set too high originally from the factory and they lowered the torque setting. 

This is one thing almost no one checks annually as the SB says. 

 

Do you happen to remember a couple specifics..

I have the Mooney part number of the bushing that the AN4-21 bolt goes through (left side of my picture), but I can't find a standard part number for it.  Any idea where you got it? (914020-031).

The parts manual calls out a cotter pin as part of that bolt, bushing, washer assembly,  Mine doesn't currently seem to have one, just a nylon locking nut?  Do you remember if you did?  If so, was it a castle nut and drilled AN4-21 instead of undrilled?

As Doc mentioned, there are several SBs and upgrades, so I'm trying to figure out which version I have and what parts I have before taking it all apart.  It could be a problem to figure that out and/or to find the parts.

[kortopates]

yes, it takes a castle nut and a cotter pin. You can start ordering the standard hardware and things like the Heim joint now from Aircraft Spruce. The only tricky part is determining what size shim you’ll probably need in order to tighten things up on the steering horn. you won’t be able to measure that till you take it apart and can you get a feeler gauge on it to measure what you might need to take up any residual slack. For the shims, you’ll have to go through your favorite MSC or LASAR. It might seem a little challenging at first to get access to get it off, particularly the bolt with the castle nut, but I recall just partially retracting the nose gear to give give me the access I needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cliffy]

IIRC I just ordered all my pieces from LASAR 

Because its a "rotating" joint bolt and not just a static bolt it needs a castle nut and cotter pin. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by cliffy

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, cliffy said:

IIRC I just ordered all my pieces from LASAR 

Because its a "rotating" joint bolt and not just a static bolt it needs a castle nut and cotter pin. 

I believe you guys, and parts manual has a cotter pin.  Check out my picture below.  This has been on there since 2003 when “new lasar steering horn (old style) installed”

No pin.

[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I believe you guys, and parts manual has a cotter pin.  Check out my picture below.  This has been on there since 2003 when “new lasar steering horn (old style) installed”

No pin.

Not only is it the wrong hardware, but with that nut, the rule of thumb is there should be two threads showing.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Not only is it the wrong hardware, but with that nut, the rule of thumb is there should be two threads showing.

Looks like I’ve got some work to do.  Glad it stayed on 19 years!

[carusoam]

That’s interesting…

if there is a traditional two threads showing for proper bolt length…

And the whole system is showing slop….

Is it possible that this nut may be responsible for a lot of the looseness in the system?

PP wondering only…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

.....

Is it possible that this nut may be responsible for a lot of the looseness in the system?

PP wondering only…

Best regards,

-a-

Doubtful, but certainly responsible for every less than perfect landing over the last 19 years!

[Ragsf15e]

Dumb question, but will one of you guys with a “vintage” airplane post a picture of the back of your nose truss/steering horn assembly please?

Thanks.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do you happen to remember a couple specifics..

I have the Mooney part number of the bushing that the AN4-21 bolt goes through (left side of my picture), but I can't find a standard part number for it.  Any idea where you got it? (914020-031).

The parts manual calls out a cotter pin as part of that bolt, bushing, washer assembly,  Mine doesn't currently seem to have one, just a nylon locking nut?  Do you remember if you did?  If so, was it a castle nut and drilled AN4-21 instead of undrilled?

As Doc mentioned, there are several SBs and upgrades, so I'm trying to figure out which version I have and what parts I have before taking it all apart.  It could be a problem to figure that out and/or to find the parts.

Mooney bushings from my experience are special to Mooney and are not available elsewhere.  Most are steel, chrome plated and ground to correct dimensions as required.

[Ragsf15e]

while waiting for someone to post one put together correctly, I found this picture on MS from another airplane.

Isnt the bolt (not the circled ones) in backwards?!  
 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

while waiting for someone to post one put together correctly, I found this picture on MS from another airplane.

Isnt the bolt (not the circled ones) in backwards?!  
 

The red one is correct, put in the other way will shear the nut off when the gear retracts.  The blue one is upside down in my experience.

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

while waiting for someone to post one put together correctly, I found this picture on MS from another airplane.

Isnt the bolt (not the circled ones) in backwards?!  
 

What’s the IPC show?

[Guest]

From the IPC.  Item 29 bolt shows head up and item 24 the bolt in the collar isn’t shown

[PT20J]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

From the IPC.  Item 29 bolt shows head up and item 24 the bolt in the collar isn’t shown

So, same as the later models that have a different horn. Thanks.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

From the IPC.  Item 29 bolt shows head up and item 24 the bolt in the collar isn’t shown

I agree, I was talking about the 22 bolt, not circled.  Isn’t the ipc showing it go the other way?

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I agree, I was talking about the 22 bolt, not circled.  Isn’t the ipc showing it go the other way?

I don’t think that there is a clearance issue with that bolt, so head forward should be fine.