2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[CaptainOveur]

8 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Wow!  A guy with a just few posts taking on one of our senior members.  Really nice, welcome to Mooneyspace 

Clarence

BTW how does this "senior member" stuff work?  Is there something I need to read or study, or can anyone join?  Or maybe I will just not learn anything or bother to read anything but keep opining anyway...?

[CaptainOveur]

On 8/2/2019 at 3:18 PM, Yetti said:

If it is professional and safely run, then planes would not have swapped paint.   But planes did touch.  So was it not professionally and safely enough run? Everyone needs to move further back to start the discussion.

True, this is why airline that has ever had an accident should be shut down immediately...and the Blue Angels and Thunderbird too...and those guys in Italy...

[Sabremech]

On 8/6/2019 at 11:09 PM, gsxrpilot said:

No one is criticizing anyone for not flying with the Caravan or attending a Caravan clinic. But those of us who do and who have are critical of anyone giving out "facts" as if they know... which you obviously don't.

You do realize that there may be members here that don’t fly with the Caravan but do fly formation and have their FAST cards? So someone may just know more than you assume. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Sabremech

[bradp]

23 minutes ago, CaptainOveur said:

So no Caravan pilots fly at all during the year except for the particular Caravan event?  That seems reckless...why wouldn't they practice during the year at all?  Just one flight a year, huh?

I couldn’t tell if this was sarcasm or not.  

The minimum training is pretty well defined.  Attend a clinic - usually self study, half day ground school and 2 full days of flying (Friday Pm, Sat all day, Sun AM) I recall logging around 7 hrs of formation flying my first clinic.  The first flights you observe sitting right seat with a safety pilot demoing.  Second day as a new formation pilot, you sit left seat 2 flights (average, more depending on need).  You need to safely demonstrate station keeping of different forms and emergency exits, takeoff and landing techniques.  The new pilot is checked off by the safety pilot and then moves to solo flight.  The last day the recent curriculum has included (for the mid Atlantic group) flying as an approximately 20-plane formation flight of elements of three to simulate the Madison to Oshkosh procedure.  For interested pilots advanced training is offered informally after the primary objectives are met.  Additional practice opportunities are on ones own, with another type club, or in the two days leading up to the Oshkosh flight. It’s mostly muscle memory and does require currency and proficiency but is more like landing or riding a bike than keeping current and proficient for instrument flying.  

Hey Joey ... ya ever been in a cockpit before? 

[CaptainOveur]

5 minutes ago, bradp said:

I couldn’t tell if this was sarcasm or not.  

The minimum training is pretty well defined.  Attend a clinic - usually self study, half day ground school and 2 full days of flying (Friday Pm, Sat all day, Sun AM) I recall logging around 7 hrs of formation flying my first clinic.  The first flights you observe sitting right seat with a safety pilot demoing.  Second day as a new formation pilot, you sit left seat 2 flights (average, more depending on need).  You need to safely demonstrate station keeping of different forms and emergency exits, takeoff and landing techniques.  The new pilot is checked off by the deftly pilot and does a solo flight.  The last day the recent curriculum has included (for the mid Atlantic group) flying as an approximately 20-plane formation flight of elements of three to simulate the Madison to Oshkosh procedure.  For interested pilots advanced training is offered informally after the primary objectives are met.  Additional practice opportunities are on ones own, with another type club, or in the two days leading up to the Oshkosh flight. 

Thank you for responding.  Your post reflects you are knowledgeable and informed.  The poster to whom I was responding stated facts that seemed at odds with common sense.  Your specific facts also contradict what was posted.  That helps a new reader to know what facts actually are, so we can understand which posters are informed and which just state stuff  without any factual basis. 

Shifting gears, is just opining without any actual basis how one gets to be a "senior member"?   

[gsxrpilot]

15 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

You do realize that there may be members here that don’t fly with the Caravan but do fly formation and have their FAST cards? So someone may just know than you assume. 

Very true, but the "facts" I was objecting to are about Caravan operations. Even having a FAST or FFI card wouldn't give one knowledge about specific Caravan operations. And just to be sure, even a FAST or FFI carded formation pilot would still have to attend a Caravan clinic and qualify for the Caravan within the same calendar year just like every other member. It is also true that their experience and expertise would be recognized and very much appreciated and they would likely be asked to assist with new pilots flying formation for the first time. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, CaptainOveur said:

So no Caravan pilots fly at all during the year except for the particular Caravan event?  That seems reckless...why wouldn't they practice during the year at all?  Just one flight a year, huh?

The Caravan practices some, at many locations, then flies once. Practice amount is highly variable between pilots.

Blues practice hours a day for weeks before the season starts, and continue to practice between several dozen shows. Each show has double or triple the flight time of the Caravan.

There is no comparison . . . . 

[Bob_Belville]

The Caravan practices some, at many locations, then flies once. Practice amount is highly variable between pilots.
Blues practice hours a day for weeks before the season starts, and continue to practice between several dozen shows. Each show has double or triple the flight time of the Caravan.
There is no comparison . . . . 

Hank, why do you continue to post to this thread? You know nothing about Caravan which ought to give you pause.

Folks come to MS with questions. I have and do. Those who provide answers should know what they’re talking about. Unfortunately, sometimes we hear from someone who represents that he knows when he is just blowing smoke.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, CaptainOveur said:

True, this is why airline that has ever had an accident should be shut down immediately...and the Blue Angels and Thunderbird too...and those guys in Italy...

CaptianandTenniel you might want to try reading for content, but thanks for supporting my point.   Professionalism will not prevent accidents.

[Yetti]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:50 PM, KSMooniac said:

 You could start by reading the Caravan manual before making assertions about an unfamiliar subject.

 

So I read a fair amount of the 226 pages of the manual.   A couple of improvements would be: Make it more commands and more checklist like, less chatty.   Do this now, do this if this happens.    More diagrams.   I think there is too much information to remember and also fly the plane in say rough air. Just today I was having a hard time doing radio calls for an overhead break because I was worried about being smooth.  There is no finger diagram in the section that describes a finger formation.   The safety section is at the end.  Even the Harbor Freight manuals have the safety section at the front.

There seems to be very (or I missed it) information about management of lots of flights.   I found one sentence about taking off 10 seconds behind the flight in front of you.   I found out that there is no word for many flights (gaggle, flock?)

If the 201 was slowing because of the flight in front of him was coming up too fast then this would be a contributing factor? Along with both pilots losing SA.  How much formation practice/training during the year is with flight leads working and managing within and around another flight?   Are flights staggered to give more room to maneuver?  I would think alot of managing lots of flights (a gaggle) would come from WWII bombing formation flying.

[Yetti]

Also what i did not see in the manual were currency requirements.   We have them for IFR, Night flying and carrying passengers.   It would seem like there would need to be a Must have 50 flight hours in the calendar year prior to flying in the caravan with 10 of those hours being in formation flight.

The reason the Safety section is in the front of a Harbor Freight manual is so that it can explain the symbols that will be used throughout the manual highlighting where people might get into trouble.

For example It was explained very clearly and I had to confirm which way we would turn for the Overhead break.   The reason being was there was an incident where that was not confirmed in Florida and planes went down.

What was found yesterday was it was really hard to maintain altitude yesterday and the buzzards were up at 4500 feet.  What you won't know out of the accident report is if the 201 was low or the Mooney international plane was high.   Pretty much because with task saturation know one will know.

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Yetti

[CaptainOveur]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

CaptianandTenniel you might want to try reading for content, but thanks for supporting my point.   Professionalism will not prevent accidents.

The music group was “Captain and Tennille” actually.  Besides content, I also read for spelling. 

[CaptainOveur]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

So I read a fair amount of the 226 pages of the manual.   A couple of improvements would be: Make it more commands and more checklist like, less chatty.   Do this now, do this if this happens.    More diagrams.   I think there is too much information to remember and also fly the plane in say rough air. Just today I was having a hard time doing radio calls for an overhead break because I was worried about being smooth.  There is no finger diagram in the section that describes a finger formation.   The safety section is at the end.  Even the Harbor Freight manuals have the safety section at the front.

There seems to be very (or I missed it) information about management of lots of flights.   I found one sentence about taking off 10 seconds behind the flight in front of you.   I found out that there is no word for many flights (gaggle, flock?)

If the 201 was slowing because of the flight in front of him was coming up too fast then this would be a contributing factor? Along with both pilots losing SA.  How much formation practice/training during the year is with flight leads working and managing within and around another flight?   Are flights staggered to give more room to maneuver?  I would think alot of managing lots of flights (a gaggle) would come from WWII bombing formation flying.

Is the manual to which you refer what governed this flight?  

The manual I saw on the website was pretty close to Air Force materials, maybe you should send the USAF  your comments. You’ve put so much time in and have such evident expertise. I’m sure they’ll appreciate it. 

WWII bomber “boxes,” which were configured to maximize the defensive firepower of armed warplanes fighting off swarms of more maneuverable fighters sounds completely relevant to groups of camping families heading to Oshkosh in three-ship vics on a 30-minute flight. 

Did you ever see the 12 O’Clock High TV series?  Maybe we could have a viewing party. I bet there are lots of good ideas there!

[Tom]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Wow!  A guy with a just few posts taking on one of our senior members.  Really nice, welcome to Mooneyspace

Appears as though there's not enough lithium in the water supply in Iowa.

[CaptainOveur]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

The Caravan practices some, at many locations, then flies once. Practice amount is highly variable between pilots.

Blues practice hours a day for weeks before the season starts, and continue to practice between several dozen shows. Each show has double or triple the flight time of the Caravan.

There is no comparison . . . . 

Wow...you have managed to keep track of every Caravan formation pilot and how much form time each has logged over each year. That’s amazing!  How great of you to collect and maintain all of that information to enable you to comment with such authority. 

NOW I know why you’re a “senior” member!  I’m impressed. 

[CaptainOveur]

8 minutes ago, Tom said:

Appears as though there's not enough lithium in the water supply in Iowa.

There is something in the fish...maybe I should’ve had the lasagna?

[CaptainOveur]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

 I think there is too much information to remember and also fly the plane in say rough air. Just today I was having a hard time doing radio calls for an overhead break because I was worried about being smooth. 

Yes l understand. I once had air so rough I couldn’t even remember my name, my FO just kept going on and on about a “clearance.” 

 

[Andy95W]

11 minutes ago, CaptainOveur said:

Yes l understand. I once had air so rough I couldn’t even remember my name, my FO just kept going on and on about a “clearance.” 

 

This explains a lot, actually.  Something must've gotten jarred loose when you hit that turbulence.

[ilovecornfields]

Although I object in principle to creating a new account just to mess with someone, @CaptainOveur is pretty funny!

[Skates97]

1 minute ago, ilovecornfields said:

Although I object in principle to creating a new account just to mess with someone, @CaptainOveur is pretty funny!

Would be interesting to see the IP's associated with posts and who they match up to.

[RogueOne]

26 minutes ago, Tom said:

Appears as though there's not enough lithium in the water supply in Iowa.

Surely you can’t be serious...

[Andy95W]

...and don't call me Shirley.

[ilovecornfields]

10 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Would be interesting to see the IP's associated with posts and who they match up to.

Maybe after we’ve worn out all the Airplane! jokes? I haven’t seen any lines from Airplane II yet.

[jaylw314]

48 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Maybe after we’ve worn out all the Airplane! jokes? I haven’t seen any lines from Airplane II yet.

That's because the first movie was far superior  

Incidentally, if you've never seen "Kentucky Fried Movie", it's worth a rental.  It was the Zucker brothers' first movie.  Completely hilarious (and completely politically incorrect).

[ilovecornfields]

59 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That's because the first movie was far superior  

Incidentally, if you've never seen "Kentucky Fried Movie", it's worth a rental.  It was the Zucker brothers' first movie.  Completely hilarious (and completely politically incorrect).

I respectfully disagree.

https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Airplane_II:_The_Sequel