That dangerous pilot on your field

[Andy95W]

@Aviationinfo- I thought your post was excellent. Did you delete it?  

[Aviationinfo]

Thank you.  I did delete it.  

I decided I left too much identifying information within it.   I'll try to come up with the gist of it and edit it better.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Aviationinfo

[ragedracer1977]

On 5/10/2019 at 8:40 PM, Hank said:

OMG!! The Pre-J speed record is held by a C! And two of the top three C speeds are faster than the Es . . . And the M20-S.    My C is fast, but not that fast, I've only hit 186 knots in straight-and-level flight. But I don't see any rules or disclaimers in the speed record website, so maybe 1000fpm descents rule?

One of those C records (229kts) belongs to me.  I went up that day specifically to see if I could set the record.  The winds aloft were howling

[Shadrach]

On 5/11/2019 at 5:36 AM, KRviator said:

VNE is most definitely not IAS - at least - not all the time. For the majority of light aircraft, it is true the manufacturer does not specify it as anything else, but there are a great many aircraft, sailplanes, the entire Vans RV line and more where VNE is based on True airspeed, and as a result, it is easy to blow through up high or in the descent. I've never been comfortable with the E-models getting about cruising & descending well into the yellow arc, notwithstanding the strength of the Mooney airframe.

It really depends on what the manufacturer has based its' VNE on. As an example, for the RV's, it is based on the flutter margin, which in turn, is based on TAS, hence why having an EFIS is great, as most dynamically scale the ASI colour bands based on the instantaneous TAS.

The E model (as well as other vintage Mooneys) has conservative yellow and red arcs. The 60s era metal Mooneys were dive tested to speeds in excess of 300MIAS. At this time Mooney indeed specicifies Vne in both KCAS and KIAS for the newer models. The Acclaim has a published Vne of 196KCAS/194KIAS with the same (for all intents and purposes) control surfaces as an E model. 

[Shiny moose]

We have all done things in aviation that if known about, other aviators would think we are dumb, silly, or incompetent. Hell this is in every aspect of life I think. My .02

[aviatoreb]

18 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

44,000 acres, thats the size of thenwhole damn UK! 

...and that's BEFORE Brexit.

[aviatoreb]

On 5/10/2019 at 7:50 PM, Hank said:

At least your super-dangerous canoe season is very short, limited by ice. This is off my back deck, and the large pond drains out of sight into a 44,000 acre lake that never freezes . . . .

 

We have a lake in our back yard too - and its even liquid half of the year.  The other half of the year....frozen.  Sometimes covered in snow.

 

[Stephen]

17 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Sadly every airport has one of these pilots.  Ours landed on the taxiway, now affectionately named 26L, then on another occasion cleared the runway and had no idea where he was.  He has passed on now and been replaced by another.

Clarence

Evidently the bell curve always has a left tip...

[Davidv]

All it takes is reading hundreds of accident reports from pilots who have thousands of hours to realize that anyone can make mistakes at anytime.  While we all are going to have the occasional brain lapse, I think the important lesson is to never get complacent.  I’ve flown with a 737 captain a few times in a Mooney and he always makes a point to go through every checklist item even though it’s already memorized since that’s what they do everyday.

[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, Davidv said:

All it takes is reading hundreds of accident reports from pilots who have thousands of hours to realize that anyone can make mistakes at anytime.  While we all are going to have the occasional brain lapse, I think the important lesson is to never get complacent.  I’ve flown with a 737 captain a few times in a Mooney and he always makes a point to go through every checklist item even though it’s already memorized since that’s what they do everyday.

To both of your points.

-An accident can happen to anyone - there was a beloved CFI/DPE locally who had 14,000 hrs and one evening we lost him when he was doing a stupid-pilot trick gotta-get-there-itis flight that he drilled into us never to do such things.  :-(  A Scud rud flight down low in the mountains in a cherokee 140 to stay below low hanging icing clouds when it was clear the only solution that day was to spend the night where he was.  And a time building student pilot who was riding with him.  About 10 years ago.

-I have noticed it takes real disciple to REALLY use my check list vs going through the motions of using my check list since I have read the darned thing so many times.  I.e., to really pause for a moment and confirm that yes indeed I really did do the thing I just read, rather than just read it and feel good it is familiar.  In other words unless I focus to stay disciplined I would slip into sort of speed reading the check list as if it is a familiar document rather than actually using it to check off tasks completed.  This takes focus.

Edited May 13, 2019 by aviatoreb

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

To both of your points.

-An accident can happen to anyone - there was a beloved CFI/DPE locally who had 14,000 hrs and one evening we lost him when he was doing a stupid-pilot trick gotta-get-there-itis flight that he drilled into us never to do such things.  :-(  A Scud rud flight down low in the mountains in a cherokee 140 to stay below low hanging icing clouds when it was clear the only solution that day was to spend the night where he was.  And a time building student pilot who was riding with him.  About 10 years ago.

-I have noticed it takes real disciple to REALLY use my check list vs going through the motions of using my check list since I have read the darned thing so many times.  I.e., to really pause for a moment and confirm that yes indeed I really did do the thing I just read, rather than just read it and feel good it is familiar.  In other words unless I focus to stay disciplined I would slip into sort of speed reading the check list as if it is a familiar document rather than actually using it to check off tasks completed.  This takes focus.

The usage of checklists is not a panacea and subject to human factors such as what you mentioned.  One of the frustrations of teaching critical decision-making is that we get all theses glib remarks of "follow the checklists" or "weigh the risks and benefits," without the follow up instructions and guidance as to HOW to do those very things.

For example, I still see hospitals using detailed routine checklists in the OR and applying them as "to-do" lists for standard situations, where a nurse reads off the checklist one by one, and each person responds after checking that item.  This is highly time-inefficient, and I believe that pressure produces a risk of skipping or missing items from impatience.  I think this is similar to the one accident (I can't recall the details off the top of my head), where the crew attempted to go through a needlessly detailed emergency checklist and got distracted from the problem that killed them.  When there is time pressure, detailed "to-do" checklists are counterproductive.  Instead, checklists need to be streamlined and/or the process of using them needs to be transitioned to a "don't miss" list once people have enough experience with the items.

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The usage of checklists is not a panacea and subject to human factors such as what you mentioned.  One of the frustrations of teaching critical decision-making is that we get all theses glib remarks of "follow the checklists" or "weigh the risks and benefits," without the follow up instructions and guidance as to HOW to do those very things.

For example, I still see hospitals using detailed routine checklists in the OR and applying them as "to-do" lists for standard situations, where a nurse reads off the checklist one by one, and each person responds after checking that item.  This is highly time-inefficient, and I believe that pressure produces a risk of skipping or missing items from impatience.  I think this is similar to the one accident (I can't recall the details off the top of my head), where the crew attempted to go through a needlessly detailed emergency checklist and got distracted from the problem that killed them.  When there is time pressure, detailed "to-do" checklists are counterproductive.  Instead, checklists need to be streamlined and/or the process of using them needs to be transitioned to a "don't miss" list once people have enough experience with the items.

This is an excellent point.  For years I have used nothing but a before take off and a before landing check list incorporated with best practices like don't touch the prop unless the key is visible on the glare shield.  I recently developed a more detailed checklist flip book for start, taxi, take off, climb, cruise, descent, landing and shut down.  Using them is overkill and feels cumbersome but I am trying to incorporate more detailed procedures to help form habits that can be applied to more complex airplanes.   I never use it as a "to do" list.  I can see why check lists are a valuable part of CRM.  Using one for every stage flying single pilot feels almost distracting in a way.  With just a before Take Off and landing list I am always looking for the next step in my flow and always trying to stay several steps ahead of the plane.  I hope to get to a point where I can go from one list to the next like a musician flips sheet music without pausing.  I am not there with the new lists yet.

[Austintatious]

On 5/10/2019 at 4:19 PM, bob865 said:

So I think the thread is drifting from my original intentions but in this case, it's a good thing. 

@Shadrach My point about the speed is something that makes me go Hmmm...  Not necessarily a bad thing in an of itself, but not something I can explain.  Like I said before, I can't come up with a safe way to get 100mph above Vne in a Cherokee safely.  Maybe I'm wrong and if someone can help me understand why I am, I welcome it.  Those kinds of speeds in Mooney are lot more believable.  The adjustable pitch prop allows it go faster without necessarily speeding up the engine, the plane flies closer to the Vne mark in cruise and in normal operation is not unusual to see in the yellow arc, etc.  Comparing your Mooney and a Cherokee are not exactly apple to apples. 

Again, I'm asking to learn, can someone give me a plausible, safe way to get to 210mph in a Cherokee 140?

So to try to clarify where I actually meant for this to go.  A  more philosophical question direction. 

What do you do about the guy on the field who may or may not be dangerous?  Someone you have seen do something dangerous or the gossip says is dangerous.  Do you approach them?  Do you try to help a fellow aviator improve themselves?  How exactly do you do or word that?  Has anyone done it?  How did they react?  Is there any recourse outside of a pilot to pilot chat?  At what point would you feel the need to go that far?

 

a 100 knot tail wind  ?

ive seen 170 knots of wind ( up high though)

[jonhop]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:53 PM, aviatoreb said:

accident can happen to anyone

I've been retired from the U.S. Navy for several years, however when deploying to Iraq in 2010, the term accidental discharges--of one's weapon--had been changed to negligent discharges, as it should. I carried a firearm on my side for 13 months, clearing it each and every time before entering a building-even when I had no access to ammo. I took my firearm seriously and only made two mistakes with it. The first was burying it in sand while using it as a foundation while throwing a grenade before clearing a room during training. Cleaning it after, was not fun.

The other event was after returning to Iraq from leave. I received my weapon and magazines from the armory and promptly loaded it and chambered a round without even thinking about being inside a friendly building. Realizing my mistake before the armorer, I pulled the magazine and round out of the gun in front of him and walked over to the clearing barrel and pulled the trigger. Fortunately, the gun did not fire a round. Otherwise it would have been recorded as a negligent discharge. The armorer was caught off guard by my actions but my weapon's state was my responsibility and he could've reported me or worse. 

I've come to realize that accidents are not really accidents unless there are circumstances that are outside of any person's--human being--control. IMHO, the word accident is overused to the point of allowing people to make excuses. Have I made mistakes in anything I do, Yes. Do I learn from my mistakes, absolutely. Have I pointed out deficiencies in others, yes. Hopefully, I made a difference when I took time to discuss a deficiency.

Just my 2¢.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

5 hours ago, Austintatious said:

a 100 knot tail wind  ?

ive seen 170 knots of wind ( up high though)

Yeah, probably not at Cherokee 140 altitudes.

I've seen a groundspeed of 260 knots in my M20R, descending out of 11,000 with a wicked tailwind. I was probably indicating about 160 (Vne = 194), and truing closer to 190, so maybe a 70 knot wind. I know I've also seen a 68-knot headwind when a thunderstorm was approaching, at lower altitudes...

So, let's say this Cherokee staggered up to 10,000 feet, pushed over to Vne (170 mph = 148 knots), he'd be truing about 177 knots, and thus would only need a tailwind of 4 knots to hit the aforementioned 181.

[flyingcheesehead]

On 5/10/2019 at 1:59 PM, bob865 said:

What would you do?  I feel like there should be someway of addressing issues like this because they are not only endangering their own lives, but also the lives of those on the ground and those in the air with them.

The proper response if you feel like you should do something is to talk with your local FAASTeam rep. These people are not the FAA, they're generally experienced CFIs and they'll have a conversation with the person. Let them evaluate the situation and decide whether remedial training or escalation with the FAA is the appropriate course of action.

You can find FAASTeam reps here: https://www.faasafety.gov/faastapp/directory/default.aspx

[chrixxer]

On 5/11/2019 at 12:07 AM, flyingcheesehead said:

Then, there's the most dangerous pilot on YouTube... This guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxGjm4p2paQEhuyuVp_woDA

How'd I know that was going to be "Secondary Minimums" Jerry...

 

[chrixxer]

On 5/10/2019 at 10:09 PM, MrRodgers said:

There was a hangar neighbor of mine in Santa Monica who was one of those pilots described above.  He had many hard landings at KSMO and KVNY and even left the runway on one of them on rollout after landing.   After numerous CFI's (mine included) refused to fly with him again or sign him off he found someone who cleared him on his review and he subsequently landed hard (again) and killed himself.  Many people tried to talk with him about him needing to consider stopping his aviation activities but he refused.

There's more to that story. He'd prop-struck the plane twice (HHR and CMA); I saw it on the ground at CMA waiting to be rebuilt. When he crashed and died at VNY he was waiting to take a "709" ride with the FAA. (I did my last BFR with one of his instructors, the guy who ferried the LSA cross-country for him...)

[bob865]

12 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Yeah, probably not at Cherokee 140 altitudes.

This is exactly my point about the speed!  I fully understand airspeed, groudspeed, and winds aloft and their correlation.  I've personally never seen winds aloft about about 30kts in the normal altitude range for a Cherokee 140 on a VFR day.  Can it happen?  Yes.  Have I seen it? No.  The only time I've seen winds aloft with those kinds of speeds, it was IFR and even with the rating, in my opinion, you would have been foolish/suicidal to try it out.  That was my point in asking.  Compared to most on this forum, I'm very very very Junior.  Maybe it happens, and maybe it happens more often than I'm aware. 

[amillet]

A few years ago on a flight from Mesa, AZ to Burley, ID in VFR conditions and smooth air my ground speed was over 200 knots almost the entire way at 10,000 ft.  40 to 45 knot tailwind 

[kpaul]

55 minutes ago, bob865 said:

This is exactly my point about the speed!  I fully understand airspeed, groudspeed, and winds aloft and their correlation.  I've personally never seen winds aloft about about 30kts in the normal altitude range for a Cherokee 140 on a VFR day.  Can it happen?  Yes.  Have I seen it? No.  The only time I've seen winds aloft with those kinds of speeds, it was IFR and even with the rating, in my opinion, you would have been foolish/suicidal to try it out.  That was my point in asking.  Compared to most on this forum, I'm very very very Junior.  Maybe it happens, and maybe it happens more often than I'm aware. 

In the south east you are likely to not see those kinds of winds.  However, in the high pains east of the divide, especially in winter and spring, 30kts can be the wind speed on the surface.  So depending on the direction you are heading you could see great ground speeds or you could feel like you are in a C-150.  IMC vs. VMC doesn't seem to matter up there.  Most of the runways are well aligned with the prevailing winds so x-winds are not always a factor.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

This is exactly my point about the speed!  I fully understand airspeed, groudspeed, and winds aloft and their correlation.  I've personally never seen winds aloft about about 30kts in the normal altitude range for a Cherokee 140 on a VFR day.  Can it happen?  Yes.  Have I seen it? No.  The only time I've seen winds aloft with those kinds of speeds, it was IFR and even with the rating, in my opinion, you would have been foolish/suicidal to try it out.  That was my point in asking.  Compared to most on this forum, I'm very very very Junior.  Maybe it happens, and maybe it happens more often than I'm aware. 

I've certainly had 40 knot winds in the 9-12k altitude range.  Around here in the Willamette valley, the coastal hills block a lot of the wind below 4-5000' MSL, then all of a sudden your heading off in a different direction because of the wind.  You hear the occasional story about C150's having a GS of zero, so you figure you can find 50-70 knot winds at C150 altitudes...

[ArtVandelay]

A few years ago on a flight from Mesa, AZ to Burley, ID in VFR conditions and smooth air my ground speed was over 200 knots almost the entire way at 10,000 ft.  40 to 45 knot tailwind 

I don’t have a lot of experience with the western mountains...but general rule is that winds >20knots results in turbulence. What kind of turbulence do you get with 40-45 knots?


Tom

[amillet]

None that day. Wind out of the south 

[N6018Q]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

  You hear the occasional story about C150's having a GS of zero, so you figure you can find 50-70 knot winds at C150 altitudes...

How do you plan your fuel for flights with that GS?

After reading some of the anecdotes above, maybe I overreacted to a pilot at the airfield I'm temporarily based out of. He bought a V tail Bo without ever taking his first lesson. Went down to a flight school in the DFW area and came back in two weeks with his PPL. Another week and he had the endorsements required to fly his plane solo. Impressive, right?

We talked a few times over the next month and he mentioned a couple of times that he'd like for us to fly together in each of our planes. I gently put him off until he could get some more experience.

One month after he started flying his plane, my wife and I had just returned from a trip to Pueblo, on which I had taken pics and vids of three F-18's landing just after us. I saw him at his hanger and was showing him the pics when he mentioned he had some interesting ones also. The first vid he showed me was of all the loose items in his plane floating at eye level. Ok, I don't do that but maybe not particularly unsafe. Second vid- flying over a lake with his gear down and touching the tops of the waves (probably about 4" ripples actually). That was the point that I mentally made a note that I would never get in a plane with him. The third vid was of him performing an aileron roll in a Cessna. He said, "Your Mooney will do that!" Not as long as it belongs to me.