Seeking Mooney Wisdom

[ArtVandelay]

From a W&B I found for a C:
Js front passengers are 5” further forward.
Rear is the same.
Hat rack is about 5” further aft.
So it looks like they added more foot room and maybe moved the instrument panel and then increase baggage area.
The C is 88lbs lighter than my J.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

The official word has always been that the difference from the short to the long was 5" in the back seat and 5" in the baggage area. I'm sure that the 5" in the back seat floor area could accommodate longer front seat rails allowing for a bit more leg room in the front seat area as well. 

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

The official word has always been that the difference from the short to the long was 5" in the back seat and 5" in the baggage area. I'm sure that the 5" in the back seat floor area could accommodate longer front seat rails allowing for a bit more leg room in the front seat area as well. 

Thanks.  I actually searched to see if I was crazy, and I saw where i found it. I guess I was reiterating bad info.  Didn't know there was misinformation on the internet.  

[carusoam]

10” here... 10” there...

1) We can use some logic... from spinner to tail...

2) Using the short body as the standard.... everything else gets longer...

3) The  short and mid body are near identical from the prop to the instrument panel.... O360 vs IO360... one spnner is a tad longer...

4) Where the pilot sits is the same for both the short and mid body... they pretty much select distance from the IP and rudder pedals the same way....

5) Sure, Mooney May have drilled extra holes in the floor... slide the chair all the way forwards if you want... the yoke will poke you in the chest during the landing .... that will allow as much space as possible for the back seaters...

6) Many normal sized people will only have a couple of inches between the front seat and the bench seat...

7) Few people are concerned about a chair sliding off the back of the rails in a short body... the chair will stop within a few inches...  it will still be a surprise... so make sure you use proper stops anyways...

8) The Other thing that didn’t change... the front of the bench seat... that is the main spar...

9) True:  short and mid body have stretched 10” between them... it is clearly between the instrument panel and the main spar...

10) How you split that up depends on the PIC... the PIC selects where he is going to sit... everyone else gets to occupy the space that is left... 

10.5) whoever said that 5” went to the front seats, and 5” went to the back seats was... ill advised....     the full 10” is right in front of the finance administrator...  where are they sitting?  (now you have THE rest of the story)

11) When doing Cg calculations ... the 0.0 location is the same... a bolt on the nose gear... odd choice. But it is what it is...

12) Every inch counts... when I bought my short body... the lowest cost mid body of the time.... cost an additional 10amu...

13) yeah that’s right... 1amu per inch of space... hence the location of the extra 10” is right in front of the FA...

14) Also true...88#s more empty weight...?  About $110/LB...  for aluminum... worth about 77 cents per pound today... spot price of aluminum....

15) most important... define your mission first...

16) Bad: Getting too many things... like backseat length that doesn’t get used.... or fuel injection that may be hard to afford....

17) Bad: Not getting enough things... It is really super expensive to add extra space or fuel injection later...

18) Good: Getting the seat space that you want/need, 20+ extra HP because you can, and a panel ful of waas powered color screens...

19) Ks have longer cowls... to house the extra set of cylinders....

20) Long bodies get a cavernous extra 10” of space in the baggage area...

Don’t do the math... don’t write it down... anywhere... the finance administrator will find it... and that won’t help anyone....  

 

How was that for logic..?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

The horizontal data station 0 for both the E and the F is 5" behind the nose gear trunion but the nose gear of the F/J is 5" further forward relative to the C/J. See below.

For the C/E and the F/J the arms for the W&B calculation are:

• rear seat passengers E: 70.7"; J: same
• fuel                                  E: 48.4; J: same
• baggage area               E: 93";    J: 95.5"
• hat rack                          E: 114"; J: 119" 

Further

• The arm for the fuselage skin (manual 104 page 57) indicates the F (J?) extends 5" further aft than the C/E. 
• The overall length of the C/E is 23'2" and the F/J is 24'. (10" difference)
• The "wheelbase" of the F/J is 5" longer than the C/E. (5' 6-9/16" vs. 5' 11-9/16") I think it's fair to say the short coupled C/Es are more squirrelly on the ground and more likely to dip a nose and possibly have a prop strike than the longer wheel base F/J.

So... the mid length models are 10" longer. 5" of that is behind the rear seat arm. The other 5" is in front of the rear seat - in fact the whole section from the spinner to the instrument panel moves forward 5". No doubt necessitated by CG/CL requirements. This gives the 5" more legroom. The firewall forward dimension is about the same though the J cowl is modified from the earlier design.

(Most of you know that the nose tire of the C/E is inflated to 30 psi while the F/J gets 40 psi. More weight is shifted to the nose.)

Hope that helps.

[Marauder]

The horizontal data station 0 for both the E and the F is 5" behind the nose gear trunion but the nose gear of the F/J is 5" further forward relative to the C/J. See below.
For the C/E and the F/J the arms for the W&B calculation are:

• rear seat passengers E: 70.7"; J: same
• fuel                                  E: 48.4; J: same
• baggage area               E: 93";    J: 95.5"
• hat rack                          E: 114"; J: 119" 

Further

• The arm for the fuselage skin (manual 104 page 57) indicates the F (J?) extends 5" further aft than the C/E. 
• The overall length of the C/E is 23'2" and the F/J is 24'. (10" difference)
• The "wheelbase" of the F/J is 5" longer than the C/E. (5' 6-9/16" vs. 5' 11-9/16") I think it's fair to say the short coupled C/Es are more squirrelly on the ground and more likely to dip a nose and possibly have a prop strike than the longer wheel base F/J.

So... the mid length models are 10" longer. 5" of that is behind the rear seat arm. The other 5" is in front of the rear seat - in fact the whole section from the spinner to the instrument panel moves forward 5". No doubt necessitated by CG/CL requirements. This gives the 5" more legroom. The firewall forward dimension is about the same though the J cowl is modified from the earlier design.
(Most of you know that the nose tire of the C/E is inflated to 30 psi while the F/J gets 40 psi. More weight is shifted to the nose.)
Hope that helps.

And any of us who fly United know the 4” difference is huge between Economy and Economy Plus. When I am in economy, I am asking the flight attendant if I can stow my legs in the over head compartment.


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[MBDiagMan]

My F has the battery in the tail.  I am quite confident that the front seat position in my F is exactly the same as my previous Mooney, a C.  The difference is 5” in the back seat, 5” in the cargo area and repositioning of the wing.

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

And any of us who fly United know the 4” difference is huge between Economy and Economy Plus. When I am in economy, I am asking the flight attendant if I can stow my legs in the over head compartment.


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Steerage class sucks

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

My F has the battery in the tail.  I am quite confident that the front seat position in my F is exactly the same as my previous Mooney, a C.  The difference is 5” in the back seat, 5” in the cargo area and repositioning of the wing.

The wing doesn't move, see my more detailed note above. Another, perhaps more intuitive way to describe the change from the C/E to the F/J is to note that the rear seat=spar=wing=fulcrum remains the same and the engine/nose gear moves 5" forward while the empenagge=tail=hor. stab.=rudder=elevator moves 5" back.  

[Hank]

At least some of the extra 5" backseat legroom in F/J/K is convertible to from seat legroom by having longer seat rails with more holes. My C has 3 front seat holes, plus all the way back and unlocked. 

[Bob_Belville]

My C has 3 front seat holes, plus all the way back and unlocked. 



Are you sure, Hank? My older (‘66) short Mooney has 6 fixed positions spaced 1-1/4” apart from station 36-1/2” to 44”. Rear unlocked doesn’t count.


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[Hank]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

My C has 3 front seat holes, plus all the way back and unlocked. 

Are you sure, Hank? My older (‘66) short Mooney has 6 fixed positions spaced 1-1/4” apart from station 36-1/2” to 44”. Rear unlocked doesn't count.

I'm pretty sure, but it's been in no-major-work annual since the end of January. New IA called yesterday, the work is done, paperwork isn't,  ceilings are 300-400 agl, no approaches at home 15 nm away. So I can't swear for sure. I slide forward to lock in then move one hole forward. I think there's only one hole after that, but . . . .

Should be in the TCDS for front seat moment arms.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Hank

[PT20J]

Keep in mind when comparing legroom that Mooney makes 1.5” and 3” rudder pedal extensions. At some point, they started putting the 1.5” extensions in J’s at the factory. My ‘78 didn’t have them, but my ‘94 came with them. Check the equipment list. Or, someone may have added extensions later. If done by hangar fairies, it may not be in the logbook.