Jerry 5TJ Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 I almost always file IFR going cross-country. I feel it is both easier and safer. Yesterday I made a trip to FAT, only about 180 nmi down the central valley of CA. Visibility was easily 30+ miles, as it often is, and so for a change I went VFR. I even had a current VFR sectional with me. I did get flight following. Coming back from FAT and climbing slowly in the 100F heat, Fresno approach called traffic for me, a Brasilia 2000' above me, 12 o'clock, 4 miles out, and inbound on the visual into FAT. No joy, I reported, and started looking. About 40 seconds later the Brasilia went by about 200' above me. Just as they zipped past, the Brasilia reported, "traffic in sight,” though by that point the issue was moot. Sobering. One lesson re-learned was those turbine guys come down fast. Two, we were both VFR in a sense -- I was VFR and the airliner was IFR but on a visual approach -- so ATC had no separation responsibility for us, right? Three, targets that sit on the horizon and don't move in elevation or azimuth are both the hardest to see, and the most dangerous. Think I will stick with IFR as before. ATC separation responsibility is not a panacea, but it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 If you think maintaining IFR would have been better check this out http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7025897569830845243# If you want to avoid a mid-air collision get a traffic detection device. Mine has paid off more than once José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 And if you thought visual will help you out check this one: José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerl Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 According to the ASF, over 50% of MACs occur within 5 miles of an airport, 96% at or below 3000agl - vis most occur in the pattern, daylight VFR conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Once we were flying the CRJ-900 from Vegas to Ontario, CA one hazy summer afternoon. We were cleared to 8K and passing 11K on the descent into Ontari, just north of Big Bear. Just as our TCAS went off, we were told of a Baron climbing VFR to 10 or 12K. We were perhaps closing at 500 knots, but by the time I saw him, I clicked off the autopilot and did an abrubt 2G pull up, and he went right by us, Im not sure how close, but close enough we didnt know what happened till it was over. Sometimes you have to trust its a big sky out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 I'm not sure how being IFR would have changed the OP's situation... I have done many >400nm trips VFR with advisories... I think it's a great combination of route/nav freedom and traffic/airspace assistance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Jet, Clearly you were on an IFR flight plan...If ATC knew that it was a Barron, then I assume they were talking to him as well. Sounds like this was a "deal" for the controller, or damn close to it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 The Baron was VFR, we were IFR, both in VMC. He was just handed off to the controller working our sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 This incident highlights the need for continued vigilence in our visual lookouts, no matter what flight rules we may be following. If you are VMC, the best way to avoid a mid-air is by looking for traffic outside your aircraft, and avoiding it. Flying IFR does not relieve you of your duties to keep a continuous scan going outside the aircraft during VMC. Yes, there are more stringent responsabilities from a controller standpoint which should ultimately provide more traffic seperation and allow for IMC flight, but on a VMC day, a sound lookout doctrine is always prudent and can prevent disaster. I'm glad that everyone turned out OK in this particular case. -Job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelswick Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 If I remember the regs correctly we are responsible for visible separation/avoidance even if on an IFR flight plan while we're in visual conditions, right? I still prefer IFR for anything longer cross country than putting around Ohio just because it means another set of eyes looking, but when not in IMC, I believe we're still accountable for seeing and avoiding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crxcte Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 I have a mode s traffic avoidance system; I was amazed at all the traffic that was out there when I turned it on. Over 1/2 that are near me I don't get calls on from ATC. It looks overwhelming to manage at times. I fly over 600nm all the time and have had close calls in the middle of no where to high traffic areas. My biggest worry are those that don't have a transponder or don't fly with flight following or a flight plan. When pilots of both aircraft are watching its always better than one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 ...but some folks who have to fiddle with 2 or 3 panel mounted GPS's; 1 or 2 yoke mounted GPS's, a couple of glareshield antennas, and a kneeboard iPad just don't have the time to look outside. I've flown with a couple of these people, but only once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crxcte Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Say 2 fast Mooney planes are head to head, enclosing at a combined speed of 450 mph, or .125 miles per second, or 660 feet per second. What appears to be a little dot about 2 miles away, you have 16 seconds to identify and take evasive maneuvers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Unlike driving on the highway where other traffic is always at your same altitude and visible from any angle spotting visually air traffic is a whole different situation. As an example you are in a C172 just below and to the side of a Mooney on final and you will never see the Mooney neither it will see you because of wing view blockage. The same happens with nose and fuselage view blockage. But even if your plane was made out of glass how often are you going to be turning your head around looking for traffic. Head on incoming GA traffic (300kts closing speed) is only visible for 12 seconds at 1nm. And that's assuming you have a clear background to recognize it. With jet traffic you only have 6 seconds to spot it. ATC flight following is an option but subject to the workload of the controller. This is why TCAS is mandated for all the airlines and jet planes. And all of these fly under IFR rules. TCAS provides a continuous awareness of the surrounding traffic that is not limited by airframe blockage view, eyesight acuity or ATC workload. A mid-air collision will only happens once in your lifetime and it will likely keep you from renewing your medical no matter how many airbags or parachutes you have in your plane. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 TCAS is a mandate for jets???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 yes, along with GPS-based TAWS, GPWS and a bunch of other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becca Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 That said don't be "that guy" with the TCAS. We were going to a $100 hamburger on Monday, we called downwind, base, final. When we were on short final, a Cirrus we had heard call approaching the airport entered the downwind. We called final. He called "Aircraft on final, do you have your transponder on, we don't see you on our active TCAS". Of course, Byron politely replied that perhaps our antenna was shadowed by the wing. I didn't have a snappy reply, but was wondering, why would someone be asking a question like that to an aircraft on short final on a perfect VFR day. They could surely look out their window and see us, why bug someone on final? Too much overreliance on TCAS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Your incident was the Brasillia Jet guys wanting a good look at you or they just were'nt concerned. They knew what they were doing. Their TCAD was blarring at them the whole time. That must have been a heck of a sight!! You're right, if you were IFR in B or C, minimum separation would have been 500 and 1/2. I have TIS Mode S too. It's the bomb, especially around crowded Bravo airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 He called "Aircraft on final, do you have your transponder on, we don't see you on our active TCAS" After landing, transmit "I have the Cirrus on my eyeball. Aren't you using yours?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 It WAS a nice view of the Brasilia. I think I spotted a smoking rivet on the lower right engine cowl.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.