A&P Says "Oh no a Mooney?!!"

[Tcraft938]

So my wife and I talked with the three A&P's that I respect at my local shop as well as avionics tech today about what I'm considering for our next airplane.  When they heard Mooney, particularly a late 60's vintage C, E or F they all had a negative response and eye roll.  "They are fast/efficient and well made, but murder to work on due to nothing is easy to get at or work on", was the general gist of the conversation followed by advice like, "you'll spend more on everything because labor will be higher".  Has anyone else encountered similar, or is this just lack of expertise with the type?

Thanks

Darrin & Trina

[ilovecornfields]

I’ve spoken to some A&Ps that share that attitude, particularly with respect to the older Mooneys. One I spoke with said it wasn’t so much the airplane, it was that the owners were such cheap ba$*ards that they never seemed to want to pay what it would cost to fix things properly. Then he said “but not your Mooney, I’ll work on it anytime you want.” Maybe it helps that I pay my bills on time...

How many hours do these mechanics have flying Mooneys?

[Rwsavory]

I’ve never had a problem finding or getting someone to work on our Mooney, A&P’s and avionics techs alike.  And after 7 years of ownership I’ve never been surprised by the cost of a repair.  YMMV.

[Ragsf15e]

Find a mechanic with an open mind or Mooney experience.  Either way will be fine.  It’s a Volkswagon with wings.  It’s not complicated.

[gsxrpilot]

Auto mechanics say the same thing about Porsche's and BMWs. I'm still not driving a Ford or Chevy.

[orionflt]

The MOONEY is no worse to work on then a Beechcraft. The mechanics that work on all cessnas and pipers do not like the more complex aircraft 

Brian 

[M20F]

Having worked on mine and others would agree that Mooney’s suck to work on in many respects. 

[GDGR]

Only issue mine has is the old style cowl. He’d prefer it if I bucked up, and bought a 201 cowl to save time removing the oil cooler, hoses etc. When working on the engine. 

[Bob - S50]

You can save on labor costs if you can find an A&P that will let you remove and install all the panels.  Took me about 4 hours and more than one battery to remove them all and clean them.  Then another 4 hours to put them all back on.

[xcrmckenna]

Auto mechanics say the same thing about Porsche's and BMWs. I'm still not driving a Ford or Chevy.

My BMW is nice. But I’ll have to take you for a ride in my Dmax....




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[xcrmckenna]

My mechanic said the same thing about Mooney owners being on the cheap side. Honestly I’ve never seen Mooney owners any worse. No one likes dropping a ton of money on a plane if it wasn’t expected. And I don’t see Mooney’s ran down anymore than other planes I see on the ramp.

I have no reference working on other airplanes but I do most of my own maintenance and all the grunt work at annual. I can’t imagine other planes that much easier to work on that you’ll save so much more money.

If you buy one take it to an MSC, no one has time for that negativity....


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[Shadrach]

Mooneys can be a pain to work on. Older vintages even more so. There’s not a lot of room/access on either side of the firewall. This can mean that certain repairs require disassembly of additional components. It can also mean lying in a narrow footwell on you back working with your arms in an uncomfortable position. There are also lots and lots of fasteners to contend with. If you spend time working on one, you get to understand the cost associated with maintenance labor. The best way to mitigate this is to find an experienced Mooney mechanic. Mechanics without Mooney experience can sometimes waste a lot of time trying to remove something from a crowded cowl without removing other items that make the job easier. Brand C and P products are not as compact. Cannot speak to how Beech compares.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Tcraft938 said:

So my wife and I talked with the three A&P's that I respect at my local shop as well as avionics tech today about what I'm considering for our next airplane.  When they heard Mooney, particularly a late 60's vintage C, E or F they all had a negative response and eye roll.  "They are fast/efficient and well made, but murder to work on due to nothing is easy to get at or work on", was the general gist of the conversation followed by advice like, "you'll spend more on everything because labor will be higher".  Has anyone else encountered similar, or is this just lack of expertise with the type?

Thanks

Darrin & Trina

My IA used to have a Mooney, so he's partial to them--he sounded pretty happy to get to work on mine.  When I hung around for the last annual, he showed me around the underside with the belly panel off pointing out everything.  He kept making wistful comments throughout about how well it was designed and how well built it was.  I felt a little embarrassed, to be honest 

[lifendet]

I'd find another mechanic if you decide to purchase one. That early attitude towards the make will not blossom into a good relationship with the mechanic. 

[M20F]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Cannot speak to how Beech compares.

They are glorious, in fasten and pop open the cowl in about 10 seconds and it is like working on a 1957 Chevy engine compartment.  

I really like Bonanzas aside from their cost, CG challenges on some models, useful load, and NM per gallon.  Vintage Mooney’s are the misers choice.  

[carusoam]

D & T,

You walked into a shop, and they helped you to be...

• less interested in flying....?
• less interested in ownership...?
• less interested in saving money?
• less interested in working with them...?

In the 60s and 70s cars were gigantic.  They had enough space you could stand next to the engine while working on it... Similar to Charles’ monster truck above...

Since the oil embargo of the 70s, EPA regulations, and Z rated tires... things have gotten pretty tight under the hood of everything...

SOME mechanics aren’t going to like tight spaces and knowing how to access things....

So... find a Mooney mechanic... he already knows how to access stuff.  He already has the maintenance manuals... the tools and everything else...

It is possible the mechanic was just pulling your leg... these guys are pretty well trained...  

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Tcraft938]

Perhaps I should clarify.  The first person I talked to was the avionics tech.  He was inside a Sky Lane with the entire panel ripped out except for a lot of wires.  He was the first to speak from his avionics perspective about the challenges of space.  He also qualified his opinion with comments like, if you can get something that is already upgraded to a more recent avionics generation that's worth it, I've seen some shops that due to space challenge do a hap hazard wiring job which adds to the challenge.  I can look in there pretty quick and tell if hack job or quality work, if quality work and access from in front of the windshield life just go much better."  I think he was overrun with ADSB transponders and virtually no one asks him to simply install the transponder, but a bunch of other stuff too.  We get along well and he misunderstood me at first thinking I said, I already had one and wanted ADSB, AP & GNS installed and he didn't want to tell me he was booked through June.  

The three A&P's overheard the conversation and were surprised I was considering a Mooney based on the plane I had previously and the type of flying I did, but they didn't realize our mission has changed some.  The two more seasoned A&P's (one owner) finished the conversation with, "we could stand here all day and argue about the pros and cons of each plane and there would be varying opinions on it as well.  They all have their ups and downs.  With the way you care for a plane and fly it regularly, treating it well, I think a Mooney once we got it to par, if it needs it, will reward you with pretty good service better than a few I can think of.  Certain things are tough to work on because it's tight, but you like to assist in annuals so I'll give you that tight grunt work to do and that way you're not paying me to do it, LOL   Bottom-line, it's your $ get what you find you like and we'll help you be happy with your choice."

My wife (not a pilot) walked away with a little different impression.  She didn't hear as much negativity.  What she heard was, "don't buy old and not flown for years so you can save a few $ on purchase because you'll more than make it up on restoration, if you want a garmin panel, find one that has most of what you're looking for, etc".

Life and is full of fun or fund decisions.  I'm fortunate she is supportive of my passion.  The plane we just sold, she actually was the one who bought it.  I didn't want to take $ from the family, she drove back out to the airport, negotiated and bought it.  

[Bob_Belville]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

My IA used to have a Mooney, so he's partial to them--he sounded pretty happy to get to work on mine.  When I hung around for the last annual, he showed me around the underside with the belly panel off pointing out everything.  He kept making wistful comments throughout about how well it was designed and how well built it was.  I felt a little embarrassed, to be honest 

That sounds like the good folks at @AGL Aviationwho would rather work on Mooneys than most other brands. While they enjoy replacing old Cub spars and fabric, I think they'd be happy with DMax's business which is Mooneys only. 

To be fair, some tasks take a little longer with a Mooney. No big deal. The cowling sides, and top, come off to change oil, etc. About 5 minutes to remove 8 10-32 screws and about 30 1/4 turn fasteners. The bottom piece is more of a bear but there is seldom any reason to remove it. (I've owned 2 vintage Es for a total of 18 years.)

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, Tcraft938 said:

The three A&P's overheard the conversation and were surprised I was considering a Mooney based on the plane I had previously and the type of flying I did, but they didn't realize our mission has changed some.  The two more seasoned A&P's (one owner) finished the conversation with, "we could stand here all day and argue about the pros and cons of each plane and there would be varying opinions on it as well.  They all have their ups and downs.  With the way you care for a plane and fly it regularly, treating it well, I think a Mooney once we got it to par, if it needs it, will reward you with pretty good service better than a few I can think of.  Certain things are tough to work on because it's tight, but you like to assist in annuals so I'll give you that tight grunt work to do and that way you're not paying me to do it, LOL   Bottom-line, it's your $ get what you find you like and we'll help you be happy with your choice."

 

Good advice. 

[kmyfm20s]

CrownAir my on field MSC which recently closed (RIP) was also a Cirrus service center. They preferred to work on the Mooney’s but they had all the tight spots figured out and made special tools in the areas that needed it. Every time I would bitch about something I was doing because of my big hands they would smile walk over to the bench pick up some special tool and would you probably needed this, holding it in the air. With that said they did bitch about rocket conversions. 

[Prior owner]

Most of the other A&P’s I have spoken to think the same way....not so much because of the tight spaces, but because they either got talked into doing a tank strip & reseal for the first and last time, or because they opened up a Mooney for annual and instead found a pregnant dog.

Dealing with decades of neglected maintenance is unpleasant. Many planes are Beautiful and polished on the outside, but nobody ever cleaned and greased the jackscrew or the trim shafts, dealt with the leaky tank,  etc..... the guy who said that aircraft owners are “cheap” was at least 80% right.

[steingar]

My Mooney has a  crapload more room to work than my old sport bike.

[KLRDMD]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Mechanics without Mooney experience can sometimes waste a lot of time trying to remove something from a crowded cowl without removing other items that make the job easier. Brand C and P products are not as compact. Cannot speak to how Beech compares.

Not gonna see this access on a Mooney of any vintage. Eight ¼ turn fasteners, four per side and you get this view.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by KLRDMD

[ArtVandelay]

If you offer to help, that might help.
I will do whatever I am comfortable with, leave the rest to him. I R&R the control cables, which means crawling in the tight footwells, my AP was thrilled when I handed him the cables. I could tell he didn’t want do it, he was procrastinating.
I usually let him put things back together. Saves a little money, and I think mechanics like to assemble things more than take them apart.


Tom

[skydvrboy]

2 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Not gonna see this access on a Mooney of any vintage.

Not going to see that fuel flow either.   To be fair, from a mechanics point of view... they don't care about your fuel flow.