Skydiving

[BDPetersen]

A skydiving operation is wishing to relocate to our small county airport, giving up their grass strip for our asphalt. I am soliciting comments from anyone with experience with the impact of such activity on an airport. The Airport Authority is tending to be seduced by the additional 20,000 gal of jet-a sales promised. As yet their drop zone hasn’t been determined, but it’s likely to be adjacent to the airport. (My property abuts the airport but I went NIMBY). To their credit, they seem to be run by grown-ups.

[Yetti]

one of the sky diving organizations around houston was kicked off the field because they decided to run loads of "merchandise" in addition to their fleshy packages.

[Oldguy]

From my experience at KPLR, the maturity and professionalism of the drop plane pilot and jump master can make or break the relationship with pilots. We had jumpers who should not have been allowed to jump and the result ranged from them being dragged across an active runway with planes on short final to one lady having both of her legs broken when she landed on top of a hangar. When we had the January fly-in for lunch at Cullman, the jumpers were essentially fine with minimal impact.

One item I would insist on would be the jump plane at least using their transponder (appeared to be an option at the KPLR group) and communicate with other planes in the air around the airport. During the PPP in Lakeland a couple of weeks ago, we spent about an hour at an airport where they had several drops while we were flying around there. No problems with them as he kept communicating and the jumpers seemed competent enough to land in their landing zone.

Another item is the airworthiness of the plane should not be a question. The jump plane in KPLR dropped a wheel and bellied in on the active runway. Seems they had had to crank the gear down on the King Air for a couple of weeks and had not taken the time to get it fixed. 

The only other item would depend on the activity at the airport. It seems jump plane pilots like to take off and land on opposite ends of the runway. Might not be a problem with limited activity, but with a significant number of planes in the pattern it raises the opportunity for the "big sky" to shrink dramatically.

To sum up my thoughts:

• Adhere to active runway usage
• Use the radio and transponder every flight (even better if they are ADS-B Out compliant)
• Having a mature pilot and jump master are exceptionally valuable
• Have a plane that is safe and airworthy and keep it that way

 

[skydvrboy]

From my experience, it has been no factor.  I used to jump quite a bit and the local pilots loved having us around (at least that's what they told us).  Now I'm on the other side and regularly fly out of an airport with a skydiving operation.  They have not caused any issues for my flying. 

Not sure about the transponder requirements, but they are required to communicate their intentions and "jumpers away" on both CTAF and the ARTCC frequency (or other controlling agency).  Their pilots will keep everyone in the area informed when they are in the air.

You will find there are two very distinct types of skydivers.  About half are the stereotypical crazy, do it for the thrill type.  Strange as it may sound, they will quickly get bored and move on to something else.  The other half are very intelligent, thoughtful, and safety conscious folks, who do it for the challenge it provides.  Since perfection is illusive, they will stick around for hundreds or thousands of jumps.  They're also the ones who will be running the operation.  You'd be amazed how many of our skydivers were Engineers.

Finally, you should jump with them to find out what it's all about.  Pilots make the best skydivers (and visa versa), because so many things cross over between the two.  Aerodynamics, energy management, traffic patterns, airspace knowledge, weather knowledge, FAR's, etc.

Edited February 13, 2019 by skydvrboy

[Hank]

I've been based at two fields with active jumpers. There was minimal interference, other than occasionally waiting a minute to takeoff or enter the pattern. There was also minimal interaction between the two groups.

Decent behavior in the air and radio broadcasts  both ways will make it simple. Don't try to beat jumpers to the ground, make a single 360 while waiting for them to land, and keep a close eye on them (and count chutes in the air).

[N201MKTurbo]

Skydiving doesn’t hamper the local pilots that much. They learn the procedures pretty quickly. It is the transient pilots that are the problem. 

[BDPetersen]

Thanks to all who have or will respond. Trying to keep an open mind. 

[RLCarter]

If it’s a Federally funded airport there isn’t much you can do to keep them out, good radio com with either their pilot and/or ATC makes it pretty much a non-issue 

[thinwing]

Having been on both sides of fence (250 jumps)a new operation will probably start small using Cessna 206 equipment than on to stripped interior kingairs or twin otters.Weekends are busiest or when they are having a jump boogie or contest.Typically jump altitudes are 13 k with twin otter loads arriving and departing opposite directions...landings are very aggressive alitude loss affairs to quickly arrive back up loading area...it’s the actual landing zone off to the side..a football field sized area off to the side with jumpers typically flying a downwind,base,final pattern at 600- 1000 altthat impact the airport the most.Jumpers deploying their chute too low and a jumper is quickly counseled (yelled at)for low openings.Snd time he is kicked off the drop zone for the day.Local pilots can be occasionally asked to fly arround to locate cutaways (expensive main chutes)...for nice reward.

[steingar]

The airport where I bought the Mooney had an active meatbomb operation.  Didn't seem to affect anything, and they were fun to watch and the meatbombs were a good group.  Surprising number of pretty girls, too.

Edited February 13, 2019 by steingar

[skydvrboy]

One other point, when you talk to them, all altitudes will be in AGL (except the pilot).  For obvious reasons, jumpers don't care about sea level and set their altimeters to zero before each jump.

[jaylw314]

22 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

One other point, when you talk to them, all altitudes will be in AGL (except the pilot).  For obvious reasons, jumpers don't care about sea level and set their altimeters to zero before each jump.

That's one of those statements that made me laugh hysterically but unable to explain why...

[kortopates]

We had a skydiving operation debut at one of our county airports just a few years ago. The pilot community really fought it because the drop zone was directly below the traffic pattern and abeam the numbers. But in the end the FAA could not disallow them any more than any other users.
When it first started up, we seemed to have endless complaints, till the Skydiving operation learned they didn’t have priority - this took a lot of complaints to the FSDO with them talking to the operation. We had jump planes announce jumpers away while we had other planes on one of the many popular approaches. After being told they needed to wait their turn and be authorized by approach before letting jumpers away, improved but some of the jump pilots resorted to bullying pilots on approach to go missed early so that they could get okay from approach to drop. As pilots, I don’t think anyone minds waiting our turn so that we can accomplish what we want, it’s usually good practice anyway (e.g. hold for another lap). Fortunately, after a couple years we seem to have found peace and mostly get along well know. My one remaining complaint is the jump planes are often to quick to launch with a low overcast marine layer over the airport still burning off. As the holes move around, this often leads to the jumpers going through the overcast which I understand is illegal. But approach has gotten real good at sequencing both approaches and jumpers with the jump pilots cooperating for safety sake and that’s all I care about.
I have several pilot friends that skydive, probably like@skydvrboy and they have been great and actually very helpful at improving our situation for all of us. We’ve been fortunate to have their help.


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[Vance Harral]

For what it's worth, I've been sharing the pattern with a jump operation at non-towered KLMO for about 15 years.  No complaints, and I appreciate that the operation helps keep the airport vibrant.  King Airs and Twin Otters as mentioned above.  Pilots have been professional and courteous.  They do fly very steep descents directly into a downwind or base leg, which I suppose you can quibble with; but they're very good about making crisp position announcements, and the airplanes are large enough it's hard to miss them.  They sometimes make intersection takeoffs, and occasionally will land in one direction and take off in another when winds are calm; which again some may quibble with.  But I've never seen them do anything to suggest they feel they have priority over other traffic.  On the contrary, I've seen them make 360s for spacing, extend for inbound traffic on instrument approaches, and wait their turn at the run-up pad/hold short line, all in deference to piston singles, while feeding two turbines.

The main contention I've observed around the field seems to come from people who don't have a good grasp on spacing in the presence of significant speed differential.  e.g. someone in a 172 might turn crosswind to downwind at about 70 knots, and feel they've been "cut off" if the King Air enters a mid-field downwind in front of them.  It's only about a mile of spacing, but at 50+ knots faster, the jump aircraft is not creating a separation hazard.

I do worry a bit about transient traffic.  Jumpers drop essentially right over the airport, and descend and land between the runway and a normal downwind leg.  This is not in conflict with the traffic pattern, except for mid-field overflights.  Specifically, an opposite-side entry where you cross midfield at 500' above pattern altitude and circle back for a 45-degree entry is a bad idea, as is flying directly over the airport above pattern altitude as a navigational reference point.  In the former case, transient pilots should get a clue when they tune the AWOS, which specifically adds a recording requesting pilots to avoid mid-field overflights.  But if you're just passing through, you may not listen to the AWOS.  Still, there's never been an incident or even a close call - that I'm aware of - in those 15 years.

Overall, a net positive for our airport.  Happy to have 'em.

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

My one remaining complaint is the jump planes are often to quick to launch with a low overcast marine layer over the airport still burning off.

That surprises me because both the jumpers and the pilots are on the hook for the violation.  Skydivers have to abide by the same cloud clearances as VFR pilots and they should all know what those are, as they had to test on it to get their license.  Yes, skydivers are licensed.  They have a graduated licensing system (A-D)  through the US Parachute Association (assuming they are a member as most are).  However, even if the drop zone is not a USPA member, the FAA will still hold the pilot responsible for any airspace violations.

On one of my early jumps I saw a cumulus cloud a half mile or so away and wanted to see what it would be like to drop through it.  I tracked over to it and blasted right through the middle.  Our safety officer met me before I made it back to the hangar and grounded me for a month.  Though I have to say, it was pretty cool seeing the full circle rainbow close in on my shadow before hitting the cloud.

[carusoam]

Sounds like an important part of the success is communicating what everyone is expecting from each other... kind of a town hall event at first..?

Many Pilots won’t have the knowledge of how well controlled the chutists actually are...

I have learned a few parts of the strategy tonight...  

Twin turbine Economics below 12.5k’... eeesh!

Thanks for sharing this thread BDP!

Best regards,

-a-

[BDPetersen]

My grumbling has subsided somewhat. While I would love to see this sleepy little airport, literally in my back yard, energized with a traffic pattern full of flight training, ag planes or whatever else I might have an understanding for, it was easy to see how this operation could devolve into a pia. You all have assuaged much of my concern. Thanks.

[RLCarter]

10 minutes ago, BDPetersen said:

 While I would love to see this sleepy little airport, literally in my back yard, energized with a traffic pattern full of flight training, ag planes or whatever else I might have an understanding for, it was easy to see how this operation could devolve into a pia. 

Carefull what you wish for, we had a flight school out of Mexico on the field for 3 years, they would bring in 50 new students every 90 days or so. Now that was a PITA, and I don't mean "Planes In The Air"

[rbridges]

56 minutes ago, BDPetersen said:

My grumbling has subsided somewhat. While I would love to see this sleepy little airport, literally in my back yard, energized with a traffic pattern full of flight training, ag planes or whatever else I might have an understanding for, it was easy to see how this operation could devolve into a pia. You all have assuaged much of my concern. Thanks.

There is one at an airport 20 minutes (by air) away, and I've never heard anyone complain.  They seem to keep in contact with Atlanta ATC.  The most inconvenience I've had is being diverted slightly when headed home on IFR flights.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, BDPetersen said:

My grumbling has subsided somewhat. While I would love to see this sleepy little airport, literally in my back yard, energized with a traffic pattern full of flight training, ag planes or whatever else I might have an understanding for, it was easy to see how this operation could devolve into a pia. You all have assuaged much of my concern. Thanks.

You are the first person to say assuage all day.

[MARZ]

22 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

Finally, you should jump with them to find out what it's all about. 

not only no but hellllllllll no

 

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

You are the first person to say assuage all day.

uh oh, we gettin' some educated folks on here...

[Hank]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

uh oh, we gettin' some educated folks on here...

an sum smaaart pipples, tu!

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sounds like an important part of the success is communicating what everyone is expecting from each other... kind of a town hall event at first..?

Many Pilots won’t have the knowledge of how well controlled the chutists actually are...

I have learned a few parts of the strategy tonight...  

Twin turbine Economics below 12.5k’... eeesh!

Thanks for sharing this thread BDP!

Best regards,

-a-

In our case, we did exactly that, we had meetings with the local pilots and had a skydiver who had no associations to the new operation, whom is a very good friend of mine, but was very capable of explaining the intended operations and how they work in general with radio notifications etc. At that time their drop zone was expected to be a about 1/2 mile away over an empty old drive-in theatre that was a bit more out of the way. But on their first day, they caught us all by surprise because their drop zone changed to on the airport just a few mere yards abeam the threshold of the common runway.  I always wondered if they had permission to use the private property of the theatre of if their earlier intentions weren't exactly honest. But we've gotten over that, it was just a huge surprise to how see how close they were landing next to the runway. 

The meetings were essential though to telling the local pilot community about the new operation and the importance of monitoring the frequencies, either CTAF or Approach. 

I should add, we have a very successful and active skydiving operation in our south country area that we are all accustomed too. But that the airport is in the rural area and the drop zones used are a few miles away in open space - not near the airport traffic and not in a urban area. In contrast, the new north county operation is at a very urban airport with no were to land outside of the small airport property, which is why they apparently tried to get access to an old drive in theatre. But if I was a skydiver (which I know nothing about), I doubt anyone would want to land on asphalt that wasn't flat and had post every 20' or so - seems like a disaster waiting to happen. So perhaps it was never really intended to be used. Anyway it has no relevance at this point but just added to our lack of trust being told one thing to find otherwise.

The jump pilots have been very courteous on the ground and for the most part in the pattern. 

[skydvrboy]

1 hour ago, Mike Ropers said:

not only no but hellllllllll no

That's funny.  I know it's not always about the numbers, but when you look at it by the numbers, the risk is very comparable to flying a GA aircraft.  In 2017, there were 7.5 skydiving fatalities per million jumps. 

Also in 2017, there were 14.0 fatalities per million GA flight hours.  To make it a more apples to apples comparison, one would need to know how many GA flights there were, but this could be calculated if one knew the average duration of a GA flight. 

If the average duration of a GA flight is longer than 1 hour 52 minutes, then GA is safer.  If it is less than that, then skydiving is safer on a per takeoff/landing basis. 

Just a guess, but when you figure in all the training flights, I'd say the average duration is less than 1:52, thus skydiving would be the safer activity.  Either way, for me, the risk is well worth the reward!