galt1074 Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Hello all, My name is Greg LeCrone and I'm an instructor pilot on MC-130's currently stationed at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque NM. I recently started seriously shopping for an aircraft and I think I've settled on a Mooney M-20F or later. My budget for the first couple years of ownership is somewhere around $80K including purchase, inspections, and upgrades. First question, is my budget realistic to get a quality M-20 with good instruments (GPS approaches, slaved A/P and HSI, for starters)? Second, I know that in civilian aviation the purchase is one thing but the money starts jumping out of your pocket with annuals, IFRs, overhauls, and general recurring costs. I have a quote from AOPA and with my flight time (about 2,500 hrs) I can get a $70k Mooney insured for about a thousand dollars a year. The purchase price is a known quantity as well, but what I don't know much about is the recurring stuff. Can you guys give me a ball-park as to how much I'm going to spend annually keeping the airplane airworthy? Third, my only mis-givings about a Mooney is the retractable gear. I've flown retractable, high performance, complex aircraft my entire career but I know that the more complicated something is the more it costs to maintain. Are the recurring maintenance costs of owning a Mooney that much higher than a similar performing fixed-gear aircraft (if such a thing exists)? Thank you all for listening and I look forward to reading your responses and hopefully becoming a "real" member of the forum with my own bird to show off. Greg LeCrone Quote
galt1074 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Posted June 19, 2011 One more thing. I have noticed while shoping around that a lot of the M-20Fs have a very strange instrument layout. The six pack is jumbled up and it makes my head hurt thinking of flying one in IMC conditions. How much does it cost to move the existing instruments around to build a traditional IFR six pack? Quote
flhelo Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Welcome to MooneySpace!! Thanks for serving this great country! (as I am a retired Apache pilot.) There is a thread on one of the forums that has ball park figures, I will try to get the link. Also AOPA has something similar. There are some nice F models out there in that price range with decent avionics. F models had a choice of electric gear or the Johnson bar manual gear depending on the year. I own a G model with a Johnson bar and love it! What will your profile be? Solo, family, business? Oh and welcome to the vintage Mooney Panel!! Mooneys are awesome cross country machines. Quote
Piloto Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Hi Greg Welcome to the Mooney Space Forum. For $80K i would go for the M20J. This way you would not need to worry about spending on converting an M20F into a J model. There are significant differences between the F and the J that makes it more cost effective to buy a J. And no matter how many mods you put into an F it will still be classified as an M20F. The landing gear on the M20J is very reliable with practically no maintenance except for lubrication at every annual. The only hydraulics in the plane are the brakes and they are as reliable as those in a car. Engine time, avionics and paint are the price dominant factors. Most will have over 2000hrs TT with an overhauled engine. Try to get one with the King Silver Crown line of avionics or later Good Luck José Quote
rogerl Posted June 19, 2011 Report Posted June 19, 2011 Greg, Good to hear from a Kirtland Airman. I trained at the Kirtland Aero Club under Dan Fernandez, who was a c130 trainer for a long time in the Air Force. I maintain membership at the club for the resources, cameraderie and (last but not least) to purchase fuel from them for substantially less than the KABQ FBO's. It might be worth your time to check into it. I also do their website for kicks: http://www.kirtlandflightcenter.org I hangar my M20J at Cutter, and have noticed that there is (was?) a mooney out in their ramp area that was for sale for a long time; not sure but it might be an "F". I do hate to see it languishing out there in the sun. Peter Lyons (Aspen, KAEG I think) and Craig McGregor (mooneyspace provider, KSAF) and I had a mini-flyin at KDRO a couple of weeks ago, and Peter was talking about doing a monthly event. Might be an opportunity to get acquainted with some of the local Mooney crew if you're interested. PM or email rogerfirstname yahoo.com if you're interested in any of the above, or maybe would like to go for a local cruise in a M20J one of these days; I could give you firsthand on exactly what I'm into on a yearly basis. At any rate, all the best on your Mooney explorations! Roger, maker of OpenFlightGPS Android application. Quote
galt1074 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Report Posted June 19, 2011 Thank you all very much for the information. flhelo: I will (hopefully) be flying mostly cross-country with my family. Obviously I will spend a lot of time just bumming around the pattern by myself but my purpose in looking at Mooneys is efficiency, speed, and capacity. It looks like I can take my wife and two small children on about as long a trip as we could stand to be in the air together and actually get somewhere. Piloto, thanks for the recommendation. I've been looking at M20Js and they seem to be very close to what I can afford but my only concern is that the closer I get to the top of my budget with the actual airplane, the less money I have in reserve for maintenance. I have certainly kept every M20 above the E in my shopping list (I think I'd like the longer fuselage). Do you have an average for what your annual costs are on a J model? rogerl, I hit the jackpot now! I've been compaining to my wife that shopping for an airplane is a lot harder than shopping for a car becuase I can't just walk down to the dealership and "test fly" an airplane to see if I like it. All of my shopping has been based on the assumption that I would actually like flying a Mooney. Please Please Please I'd love to meet up with you and the "local Mooney crew". I'll send you a PM with my contact information. Quote
danb35 Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Though I'm very happy with my M20F, your description of what you're looking for (particularly coupled autopilot and HSI) is moving you more toward a J. Particularly if you want the autopilot to follow a glideslope, there are few Fs with such an autopilot installed, and it'd be a $20k+ upgrade. Similarly, you don't see HSIs too often in an F. Getting the A/P, HSI, and an IFR GPS in a J for under $80k may be a bit tricky, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. The J is 10-15 knots faster than the F on the same power, which is a pretty good trick and entirely a result of aerodynamic cleanup. If I'd had the budget for a J when I bought my F, I'd have a J instead. The Mooney landing gear is pretty simple and reliable. Pre-1969 models could be had with manual landing gear, which is even more so, but even the electric gear is pretty straightforward. You'll swing the gear and lube all the grease fittings and Heim bearings at annual, but that's about it as far as regular maintenance. This 201 looks like it would fit your criteria. The asking price is slightly over your budget, but there may be room to negotiate in there. The total time is high, but Mooneys are tough, and if not abused shouldn't be a problem at all. The IO-360 can run for a good long time if properly cared for (specifically, if flown regularly to avoid corrosion). I'd want to add an engine monitor, but it otherwise looks to be well-equipped. Quote
Piloto Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Greg I do the annual myself at my hangar with the help of a local IA. On maintenance alone (including parts and labor) I spend about $1500 a year (including annual). The cost is for typical items such as batteries, tires, hoses, oil, brakes and occasonal parts such as ring gear, spark plugs, filters, etc. If you have a mechanical background, tools and a hangar you can save a lot of money on maintenance and have added fun.. José Quote
KSMooniac Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 You've picked the best and most economical plane for XC work for you and your family! That is both in terms of purchase price and operating cost... a Mooney cannot be beat if you compare $/mile with any other GA single for a given payload (assuming it will fit in a Mooney!) The simplest advice I can give is to buy the absolute best plane you can afford... it will likely have been flown and maintained regularly, and updated as well. It is much more economical to pay a premium for such a plane vs. getting a bargain plane that needs some work. Don't be afraid of total time... Mooneys don't have time-limited concerns generally speaking, so long as the maintenance has been done. Corrosion is a concern with any old airplane, and Mooneys are no different so check that of course in a pre-buy inspection. For your budget, I don't think you'll be able to find all of your wish-list of an IFR/approach GPS, HSI and A/P in either an F or a J unless you get really lucky and find a distress sale somewhere. HSI's weren't even installed at the factory in the pre-J airframes to my knowledge so they are pretty rare. That would be the first "sacrifice" for me since the legacy units are mechanical and will need some dollars periodically to keep running. An Aspen retrofit makes much more sense these days if you must have an HSI. A 430 is pretty common and a must-have for many buyers these days, so you should be able to find one of those. Autopilots are a wildcard, and you'll find everything from none installed to a legacy unit that may or may not work, to a modern replacement like an STEC unit. I would put an STEC at the top of the wish list because they cost a LOT to install today vs even a few years ago. You can always bargain-hunt for a used 430 if needed, but you cannot buy a used/bargain STEC and install it. The legacy Brittain units can be reliable and they're still supported by the factory at Tulsa and would do the job if that is all you have. Some owners have cobbled together the components to create an entire system, and gotten them overhauled/installed at the Brittain factory for a reasonable sum of money, so that is an option if you're patient. Go get some stick time with one of the NM guys soon, and you'll be hooked! Keep doing your research and be ready to pounce when you find the right plane...even in this economy the premium planes are selling quickly. Good luck! Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Hi Greg, Whatever maintenance expense you have with the landing gear will quickly be offset by the increase in speed (lower cost per mile) over any other 200 horsepower, certified piston single. I found my M20J's maintenance cost to be about $30/hour flying at a rate of about 200 hours per year. As Scott said, a good Mooney will typically be one that's been flown regularly and maintained by someone who knows Mooneys. Just because a mechanic one time saw a Mooney on a ramp and knows that the tail looks different than most planes doesn't mean he knows Mooneys. They're simple planes just like Cessnas and Pipers, but they are different. Quote
galt1074 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Report Posted June 20, 2011 KSMooniac, I haven noticed that an HSI is pretty rare. I have been flying military aircraft for a while now and I've gotten used to the standard six pack with an HSI. I'm perfectly willing to do without with proper training and I'm sure I'd get the hang of it quickly. It is already the first thing I'm willing to take off the list. An IFR approach certified GPS is not something I'm willing to trade off though. I have been through Advanced Instrument school at the FAA headquarters in OKC and at the rate they are de-comissioning VOR, NDB, and even ILS approaches, I'm going to want WAAS to future-proof the plane. IFR flying is safe flying so I plane to file that way a lot. I could probably do without the autopilot, I've flown old C-130s with a substandard/inoperative autopilot for a long distance but I wouldn't do it without someone sitting next to me that knows how to read an altimiter. Piloto, $1500 a year? I was thinking more like $5,000! This of course is the driving force behind my original post. If it is something around $2,000 I can swing that anytime, if it goes north of that a lot I have to seriosly consider what plane and how much I can spend while still having savings as a buffer. Danb35 and everyone else, I am not locked in to an F model by any stretch. It just seems that when I look around at planes the ones that seem to be the best "bang for buck" are Fs. I've never flown a Mooney and I honestly have very little time single-engine land. My daily flyer has 16,000 horsepower and a combat crew of 8 so all of this is new to me. Yes I have a lot of time and I'm an evaluator but I'm a new guy in this world. I really appreciate everyone's assistance and I look forward to hearing more. Bottom line, what do you spend per year to fly your airplane. Quote
galt1074 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Report Posted June 20, 2011 KSMooniac, I haven noticed that an HSI is pretty rare. I have been flying military aircraft for a while now and I've gotten used to the standard six pack with an HSI. I'm perfectly willing to do without with proper training and I'm sure I'd get the hang of it quickly. It is already the first thing I'm willing to take off the list. An IFR approach certified GPS is not something I'm willing to trade off though. I have been through Advanced Instrument school at the FAA headquarters in OKC and at the rate they are de-comissioning VOR, NDB, and even ILS approaches, I'm going to want WAAS to future-proof the plane. IFR flying is safe flying so I plan to file that way a lot. I could probably do without the autopilot, I've flown old C-130s with a substandard/inoperative autopilot for a long distance but I wouldn't do it without someone sitting next to me that knows how to read an altimiter. Piloto, $1500 a year? I was thinking more like $5,000! This of course is the driving force behind my original post. If it is something around $2,000 I can swing that anytime, if it goes north of that a lot I have to seriosly consider what plane and how much I can spend while still having savings as a buffer. I'm pretty handy and un-afraid of crawling under the hood of anything so I'd be willing to work on the plane under supervision, but I'd want someone there to watch me until I get my A&P...another retirement dream. Danb35 and everyone else, I am not locked in to an F model by any stretch. It just seems that when I look around at planes the ones that seem to be the best "bang for buck" are Fs. I've never flown a Mooney and I honestly have very little time single-engine land. My daily flyer has 16,000 horsepower and a combat crew of 8 so all of this is new to me. Yes I have a lot of time and I'm an evaluator but I'm a new guy in this world. I really appreciate everyone's assistance and I look forward to hearing more. Bottom line, what do you spend per year to fly your airplane. Quote
galt1074 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Report Posted June 20, 2011 sorry about the double-post...can't seem to delete that first one with the spelling errors Quote
KSMooniac Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 I'd say you're wise to aim for a WAAS-equipped bird...I'll add that if you have a functional autopilot and GPSS then you have the most advanced/capable/safe single-pilot IFR bird you can imagine. A few years ago I took a college buddy flying in my J and he just about cried after seeing what the combo will do compared to his B-1. In your budget range, I think a nice F will be a better choice than a lower-end J but you should fly in both and see if the J is worth stretching your budget. I was in the same boat, and twisted my own arm to get into my '77 J when it suddenly appeared locally. As I mentioned above, I would try to find one with an installed STEC autopilot since that is the single most expensive upgrade that cannot be bargain-shopped. You can scrounge a 430W on a budget if needed, especially as the new GTN boxes are on the market now. Regarding costs, there are lots of threads on this site, but you'll just have to search and sift. An "average" inspection cost should be in the $1500-$2000 range if you're paying a savvy shop to do it. Parts replacements and upgrades will add to that, and some of that is up to you and some of that is contingent on how well the plane was maintained before you get it. The bargain plane likely has a lot of deferred Mx items that you will get to pay for, so it is always better to pay a premium for a premium plane...but sometimes it is tricky to verify which planes are premium and which aren't. Owner-assist annuals can run as little as a few hundred bucks (paid to your IA supervisor) to more than that, plus parts. I did my first 3 that way... and typically spent $1000-$1500 additional in upgrades or repairs, not including my paint job, new MT prop (elective choice/upgrade), fuel tank re-sealing. I do my own oil changes and as much of my own (supervised) maintenance as possible because I enjoy it, it saves money (somewhat...but it "costs" me to not work while wrenching) and most importantly because I don't trust many mechanics. It is my pink butt in the plane, so I want to know all I can about it... Other costs you probably haven't thought about yet... Jepp data for my 530W/430W combo = ~$500/yr, XM WX = $55/mo. (A single Jepp sub is ~$350 or $375 I think.) XM WX is a required item for me for serious XC flying in t'storm/tornado country. If you want to do a lot of your own Mx, then you should invest in some tools like aircraft jacks, engine hoist (figure ~$450 total for all of those), good torque wrench and the Mooney gear preload tools, some safety wire pliers, oil filter cutter, etc. A nice electric screwdriver with clutch (not a big drill!) is also a nice thing to have. Perhaps some spark plug tools, timing box, etc. although your friendly IA should have those to help you... My average fuel burn for an XC trip is around 9.5-10 GPH total, or a bit less if it is a longer trip. Figure 100 hrs a year at $5.50/gallon = $5500 in fuel so scale that as needed for your projections. You'll likely succumb to upgrade-itis, so you might as well budget some towards that incurable disease too... Quote
Piloto Posted June 20, 2011 Report Posted June 20, 2011 Piloto, $1500 a year? I was thinking more like $5,000! This of course is the driving force behind my original post. If it is something around $2,000 I can swing that anytime, if it goes north of that a lot I have to seriosly consider what plane and how much I can spend while still having savings as a buffer. I'm pretty handy and un-afraid of crawling under the hood of anything so I'd be willing to work on the plane under supervision, but I'd want someone there to watch me until I get my A&P...another retirement dream. Greg keep in mind that I am not including the hangar rent $600/month neither my maintenance labor. The M20J in itself is easy to maintain with no headaches issues like other planes. José Quote
galt1074 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Posted June 21, 2011 Piloto, I can appreciate the other expenses. I'm just trying to get a handle on the costs I should anticipate. I would love to have an airplane...especially a Mooney but I will not do it unless I can afford to do it the right way. I would really love to be able to work on my airplane myself and get it approved by the proper authority. I really have heart-burn with the idea of paying $200-600 a month for a hangar when I know I could build a sweet hanger myself for less than $7,000. However, I hate the idea of leaving her out in the elements. I'm sure I'll break down and get a hangar but since I plan to pretty much buy the airplane outright, it is going to feel strange having a monthly payment for a hangar and none or very little for the airplane I keep in it. Anyway, Piloto, can you tell me how much effort/time you spend each year on doing your own maintenance for the annual and how much you spend on parts? I'm pretty good with cars, can I be reasonably assured that I could do a lot of the maintenance on my airplane and have it signed off by the appropriate authorities? Quote
jetdriven Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 It all depends on your mechanical ability. I lucked out and we found an IA who letds me work supervised in his shop. I have done 5 or 6 pages of log entries, new GPSs, replaced some bad instruments, antennas, spark plugs, alternator, weight and balance, etc etc etc. Point is, this stuff is simple to me and its rather easy. If you are not mechanically inclined, you need to pay someone. I have heard and talked with other Mooney heads, and 1500-2000$ is the average cost for a base annual. Deferred repairs and upgrades are extra. I am doing much of the work myself, and we fix things during the year, so ours may be less. Quote
danb35 Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 If you're pretty good with cars, there's a good chance you'd be able to work on planes too. Some things are done a bit differently (you'll rarely use 3/8 drive sockets on a plane, for example, as the fasteners tend to be smaller), but you shouldn't have a problem. You may have difficulty finding an understanding mechanic (who is the only "appropriate authority" that would need to sign off on your work) who understands Mooneys, though. Quote
DaV8or Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Greg- Everything has been pretty much covered here. From your original post I would have to say you need to decide which is of more concernt to you, avionics or dirt simple landing gear. The '67-'68 F can be had with manual landing gear that is the most simple and reliable retractable landing gear system ever devised I think. The maintenance is minimal and they almost never fail. Having said that, all Mooneys after that have an all electric landing gear that is derived from the same system. They basically replaced your right arm with an electric motor. The electric Mooney gear still scores higher than retrac systems in other planes because there is no hydraulics involved. On the other hand, the J will provide you with the panel and avionics you desire. They are also out of the box faster. When Republic Steel and Roy Lopresti turned the F into the J, they really did improve the plane by quite a bit. Finding an F with all the avionics you want will be near imposible and there will only be about a 50-50 chance that it will have manual gear. The F will probably always leave you wanting a little more. The J often satisfies their owners indefinately and becomes the last plane they ever buy, although many eventually move up to turbos, Rockets or long bodies too. I was exactly in your place last year. The F allows more of your money to stay in the bank, but the J is a more complete package. In the end, I was able to find an F that came close to meeting your requirements. I has an S-Tec 30 AP, 430 WAAS, but no HSI and at the time it had the goofy "shotgun" panel. It has the speed mods to get it very close to being a J. It does not have manual gear. All the Js I looked at that fell in my budget had antique radios and no GPS WAAS. Every J that had every thing you want (me too) was well outside my budget. However, since last year, prices have continued to fall and if you can stretch up to your $80k max, I think you can find a J with everything you want except of course, dirt simple manual gear. You'll find the right plane and it'll all work out. Welcome to MooneySpace! Quote
Hank Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 There are some attractively-priced planes for sale on LASAR's website right now, too. CA isn't too far away for you. Almost makes me want to upgrade . . . Quote
fantom Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 After bouncing around the sky in those MC-130's, you deserve the best you can get. Stay patient and look at F's and J's. From everything you've said, asked, and based on your being new to GA airplane ownership, the golden rule of purchasing the best conditioned, newest plane holds very true, and will cause you the fewest headaches, maintenance issues, and upgrade expenses, down the road. I believe that will be an early J model for you with most of your wish list gizmos already installed. It's a question of invest more now in a newer plane, or pay more later to make things better. Aviation tuition, so to speak, which is not cheap. This from an "old" F-4E driver, whose first and only GA plane has been an M20J....since 1994. Best of luck, and Go Air Force! Quote
galt1074 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Report Posted June 21, 2011 http://www.lasar.com/w/id/106/new-plane-details.asp http://www.lasar.com/w/id/132/new-plane-details.asp http://www.lasar.com/w/id/138/new-plane-details.asp First one is the category I've been looking at, last one is something I'd have to save for a couple more years to get in to. Thoughs? Again, thank you very much to all of you for the advice. Quote
DaV8or Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 Galt1074 said: " LASAR links- First one is the category I've been looking at, last one is something I'd have to save for a couple more years to get in to. Thoughs? Again, thank you very much to all of you for the advice." IMO, based on your first post, I would skip option one, the '67 F. It is pretty much stock and you will eventually want this plane to go faster and the mods you need, the 201 windsheild, 201 style cowl to name a few, are becoming near impossible to get. At this point in time, I would consider most speed mods to not be an option. Also they are very expensive. In addition, if you're going to go for a bone stock F, you should hold out for the manual gear. The second two options seem OK, but overpriced. I would either skip them or offer considerably less for them. Option two has a near run out motor. Many will tell you that an engine can be run way past TBO and this may be very true, but from a buyer's perspective, I would advise to consider this engine near it's end. This airplane also has poor avionics. On the upside, it appears to be well cared for and may well be an excellent airframe. The fact that it has never had the engine changed or rebuilt and still has decent compressions speaks well of how it was treated. Even if you decide to keep running the high time engine, the avionics are going to cost you. If you figure that a '70s J with a low time motor and Garmin stack would be around $100,000,mMaybe offer him $60,000. This would either give you $25,000 for a rebuilt engine and $15,000 to start on the avionics, or run the engine as is and $40,000 to make the panel the way I suspect you want it. Number three option solves the engine issue, but also has avionics issues. Even though it has a 430, there is no mention of WAAS, so if it is even possible (some older units can't be upgraded) it will be at least $3000. The rest of the radios are pretty much crap and still no HSI. Given the hypothetical $100,000 J, I might offer him $75,000 so you could get something like a GTN 750, with remoted transponder and/or audio panel and maybe a an engine monitor. Probably still no HSI. Overall, I'd say keep looking. I think something closer to what you want in a price range you want will come up. Quote
bnicolette Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 I agree with DAV8OR. I think all of these planes are way over priced for what they have. I think if you keep looking you will find a J with reasonable engine time, perhaps half life, with the king avionics package for around option #2 price. They are out there. I too thought I had an unreasonable purchase budget, but I found mine in February of this year and found one just the way I wanted it with the right kind of maintenance/long term owner/etc.. They can be found, just be patient. It will be hard to stay in the price range you want to be in when looking at the dealers such as LASAR, All American, etc.... These are excellent ways to go, but for a true discount, I think you will need to steer clear of them. Don't give up, be patient, and keep looking daily. Also, keep your "feelers" out there like your doing with this board and other Mooney boards, local airports, etc.. Good luck. B Quote
galt1074 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Report Posted June 22, 2011 Okay guys, thanks a lot for all of your help. I am going to be shopping for quite a while. I appreciate all of your help. I've found a couple posts from folks about how much they spend a year so I think I have all the information I need now. Quote
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