Check Gear!

[HRM]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

 I finally am flying with an effective instructor albeit with a coarse and irritating bedside manner. I am forcing myself to deal with the manner, but him making me nervous is counterproductive sometimes.

I have found that CFIs tend to fall into one of two camps. On the one hand are those that simply understand flight and are there as your spirit guide to try to help get you to Stick and Rudder nirvana and the the others who have decided that whoever taught you to fly was an idiot and it is their mission to correct the deficiencies. Whenever encountering the latter, and this occurs randomly every two years at FR time for me, I simply 'go with the flow' and stroke their ego until I get a sign off out of them. I would never, however, commit to a new rating with a CFI in that category. Seek out the spirit guide--less heartburn and anxiety and you'll be a better pilot in the end.

[Marauder]

Paul, please forgive me for using this post as a segway for a possible thread hijack, but I think it is productive in encouraging us to land with gear down.
Since buying a Mooney I probably have a few hundred landings VFR and have been very good at being careful and mindful in putting down the gear.  There were never any close calls UNTIL I finally got everything going with my instrument training.  Instructor choices are extremely limited where I fly.  I was trying an instructor at a nearby field but I had to ferry back and forth for lessons and he knew nothing about the 430W.  I finally am flying with an effective instructor albeit with a coarse and irritating bedside manner. I am forcing myself to deal with the manner, but him making me nervous is counterproductive sometimes.
Without announcing that he would be silent, he shut up on an approach and left me on my own.  I didn’t do very bad, but guess what, Somewhere along the way, he pointed out that I had not put down the gear.  It was quite rattling.  I couldn’t believe I had done such a thing.  We have been struggling with gear horn on too much so I am committed to fixing that before I fly with him again.  I figured out how to adjust it myself, so I expect to work it out.
I am very new at this.  Maybe six or eight approaches under my belt.  I am anxious to get a step by step from you guys now that I have experienced the approach sequence.  I am thinking that I should descend to altitude before the Intermediate Fix and stabilize to gear speed immediately after, then putdown the gear.  The instructor has spent so much time telling me what to do and when to do it as we fly, I haven’t formulated it in my own mind.
My failure to put the gear down was rattling.  I am sure he did it to make a good point and it worked.  I hope he willl start being that effective in teaching me what and when.  I caught a cold and have some down time so I am hoping to do some visualization to get a good method in my head.
This has much to do with gear down landing so I hope it is not considered a rude intrusion to the thread.

One of the challenges of flying approaches in a vintage Mooney is the gear and flap speeds. You’ll need to determine your power settings to get to these speeds and be able to make the transition from cruise or a descent to the approach speeds. Guys who have higher gear speeds have the luxury of tossing it out as way to slow down.

I have learned how much time & distance is consumed moving from 120 - 130 KIAS to 100 KIAS (my approach speed) to be able to deploy either flaps or gear. Hopefully your instructor has spent some time developing a matrix like this to help you with the power and attitude settings required for stabilized climbs and descents.



My typical sequence is to begin slowing down before the IAF and be below flap speed of 109 KIAS. I deploy flaps and adjust power to get to a stabilized 100 KIAS. If I am flying a precision approach, I always deploy gear at the FAF and run the BUMPS checklist.

For a non-precision, I will drop the gear at the FAF unless for some reason I am delaying the descent to the MDA (rare). Either way, I always do the BUMPS checklist.

As for your instructor, I won’t tolerate someone who doesn’t jell with my style. I have heard of people tolerating instructors who belittle them, scream at them or are just not good instructors. A decent instructor makes a world of difference on the learning experience.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[midlifeflyer]

@MBDiagMan, I'll add this to the other similar posts. For most of us flying any retractable gear airplane, it is "gear down, go down" as we are about to cross the FAF. If you look at @Marauder's chart, you can see it. The airplane is completely configured for his APV approach descent, airspeed and power included, with the only change being extension of the gear. 

The benefit of this is twofold. Integrating it into your SOP so it becomes a habit helps decrease the likelihood of forgetting it. And, you'll also find that it automatically ballparks the glideslope, which means less work for you.

your "error" is an excellent lesson.

[skykrawler]

It would be my belief that the 'flap speed' is for full flaps.  If a small amount of flaps are milked in the drag increase is remarkable and assists in getting to the gear extension if the planning hasn't worked out (like with tail wind).  Even with the higher extension speed on 1981+ J's I prefer to not extend until I am slower to avoid the air frame stress.

-Brian

 

[steingar]

One of these days I'll do the IR thing.  Just takes ca$h.  My plan is whoever I chose to do the training, their first and most important instruction is going to be to not let me land with the gear down.  That steep  learning curve is a really good place to forget a niggling thing like the gear.  

[Marauder]

23 minutes ago, steingar said:

One of these days I'll do the IR thing.  Just takes ca$h.  My plan is whoever I chose to do the training, their first and most important instruction is going to be to not let me land with the gear down.  That steep  learning curve is a really good place to forget a niggling thing like the gear.  

I hope the instructor does just the opposite! 

[Cyril Gibb]

I drop the gear at glideslope intercept, wherever on the approach that occurs.  The prop and mixture are already set for a miss and the throttle is set for the flap/gear speed at level flight.  When I drop the gear at intercept the drag is just enough to follow the glideslope down.  There's usually no need to adjust anything. Easy.

On a miss it’s just throttle to worry about.  Arrest the descent, straight ahead, gear up and turn/climb to the MAP.  And just as on the approach, usually no need to retrim much if at all.  That’s for my F.  YMMV.

[steingar]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I hope the instructor does just the opposite! 

Thanks a bunch.  I've identified a flight regimen where I'll be highly prone to distraction, especially because I'll bet most of the approaches intentionally go missed.  I'm certainly not swinging the damn bar every time I get near an airport.  So yeah, I'd like to use a bit of CRM.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, steingar said:

Thanks a bunch.  I've identified a flight regimen where I'll be highly prone to distraction, especially because I'll bet most of the approaches intentionally go missed.  I'm certainly not swinging the damn bar every time I get near an airport.  So yeah, I'd like to use a bit of CRM.

Marauder was pointing out that you wrote for your CFII to "not let me land with the gear down", while we would prefer that you DO land with the gear down! CRM is a good thing, but you also need to train for those solo flights that you will make . . . . .

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, skykrawler said:

It would be my belief that the 'flap speed' is for full flaps.  If a small amount of flaps are milked in the drag increase is remarkable and assists in getting to the gear extension if the planning hasn't worked out (like with tail wind).  Even with the higher extension speed on 1981+ J's I prefer to not extend until I am slower to avoid the air frame stress.

-Brian

 

Not a well proven belief to have...

Cessnas do use this logic.  But, that does not necessarily apply to all planes...

The forces do increase with speed and flap angle...

You can search for pics of cracked spars that are used to support the flaps... something has caused that crack...

So we have knowledge...

• Vf and Vfe exist for a reason...
• extending too much flap at too high a speed generates a lot of force...
• same logic applies to descent with flaps extended at too high of a speed...
• Too much force causes spar cracks... (not the main spar, the secondary spar that the flaps are mounted to...)
• Cracks are expensive to repair...
• I am not familiar with a way to measure the force on the flaps safely or reliably. Or compare that data to the strength of materials in actual conditions....
• In comparison... I’d rather exceed Vne than Vfe limitations... 

 

In some places Mooney updated their POH and speed limits without any change to the airframe.  These changes were based on generating flight test data over the years... thus showing the value of having actual POHs....

Some  changes, like MGTW, came with additional changes of structure... the POHs and other documents were updated with serial numbers to match...

Search on cracked spars around here to see the pics of the cracks around the flap supports... they are kind of eye opening...

Later updates to very similar structures include stronger gear legs, and speed brakes to help with the go down/slow down challenge...

Emergency descents will dissipate the energy of descent in thousands of feet per minute, with flaps retracted....

Another risk that may be talked about is uneven or asymmetrical flap deployment... things that crack are not designed to crack or break evenly....

Just sharing what I have seen around MS... 

We do have some Mooney CFIIs around that are always welcome to chime in on the issue...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

-a-

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, skykrawler said:

It would be my belief that the 'flap speed' is for full flaps.  If a small amount of flaps are milked in the drag increase is remarkable and assists in getting to the gear extension if the planning hasn't worked out (like with tail wind).  Even with the higher extension speed on 1981+ J's I prefer to not extend until I am slower to avoid the air frame stress.

-Brian

 

Sometimes, to get below a limit speed quickly like Vfe or Vle, in a Mooney without speed brakes, the only way is to reduce throttle and climb a 100' or so.  If you're on an approach, nobody is going to yell at you as long as you don't break some kind of maximum altitude.

[ilovecornfields]

59 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Sometimes, to get below a limit speed quickly like Vfe or Vle, in a Mooney without speed brakes, the only way is to reduce throttle and climb a 100' or so.  If you're on an approach, nobody is going to yell at you as long as you don't break some kind of maximum altitude.

This was the most difficult part of my transition training. Mooneys do not like to go down and slow down. Jay is absolutely correct. Speed brakes, power reduction, leveling off are all tricks if you're too fast for the gear speed. Once the gear is down, they seem to slow pretty well. I think the meaning on Vfe has been debated here before and most agree that applies to ANY flap setting, not just full flaps. Remember, Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance!

[Hank]

Yes, @ilovecornfields is correct. Vfe in your Mooney applies to adding flaps to any degree. There is no two-step flap speed as in some other makes that manynif us trained in. 

I am a big believer in the 7Ps:  Prior Prudent Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance. (Sorry, snowflakes, I grew up in the Marine Corps    sometimes it shows).

Edited January 15, 2019 by Hank

[MBDiagMan]

9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

@MBDiagMan, I'll add this to the other similar posts. For most of us flying any retractable gear airplane, it is "gear down, go down" as we are about to cross the FAF. If you look at @Marauder's chart, you can see it. The airplane is completely configured for his APV approach descent, airspeed and power included, with the only change being extension of the gear. 

The benefit of this is twofold. Integrating it into your SOP so it becomes a habit helps decrease the likelihood of forgetting it. And, you'll also find that it automatically ballparks the glideslope, which means less work for you.

your "error" is an excellent lesson.

Thanks midlife!  I know I have some new habits and routines to develop.  There also will be a time when I need to learn when the speed brakes can be useful, but the gear is probably three orders of magnitude more important.

[bradp]

10 hours ago, skykrawler said:

It would be my belief that the 'flap speed' is for full flaps.  If a small amount of flaps are milked in the drag increase is remarkable and assists in getting to the gear extension if the planning hasn't worked out (like with tail wind).  Even with the higher extension speed on 1981+ J's I prefer to not extend until I am slower to avoid the air frame stress.

-Brian

 

I’ve seen a few cracked flap plates.  There’s no reference in my POH so I treat the white arc as “any flaps” speed/ not full flaps speed.  Quite the opposite I use gear to get to flap speed. 

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, bradp said:

I’ve seen a few cracked flap plates.  There’s no reference in my POH so I treat the white arc as “any flaps” speed/ not full flaps speed.  Quite the opposite I use gear to get to flap speed.

For our vintage planes, Flap speed is 5mph higher than gear speed . . . .

[bradp]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

For our vintage planes, Flap speed is 5mph higher than gear speed . . . .

Oh very interesting.  

[bradp]

6 minutes ago, Hank said:

For our vintage planes, Flap speed is 5mph higher than gear speed . . . .

I’ll put myself up for public critique.  

Me flying an ILS to something like 500. Skip to about 7:30.

Gear out prior to FAF... but I was unsure whether I wanted flaps given my GS was something like 70 so I waited a bit longer than usual  

I usually fly speeds - but I’ve never memorized power setting.  Usually 18-15 will let me go down the ILS. 

@MBDiagMan Remember that your 3-Deg glideslope and your required descent rate are ground speed dependent not airspeed.  Get the plane at least reasonably configured before the intercept.  You can go down and slow down but not aggressively/ abruptly in our planes.  Need more time to catch up with the plane just slow down. 

-B

 

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

For our vintage planes, Flap speed is 5mph higher than gear speed . . . .

My flaps speed is 20mph less than gear speed... just like the 67 M20C I used to own.

I think it changed in 1968/69 to 125 (from 100).

[toto]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Yes, @ilovecornfields is correct. Vfe in your Mooney applies to adding flaps to any degree. There is no two-step flap speed as in some other makes that manynif us trained in. 

I am a big believer in the 7Ps:  Prior Prudent Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance. (Sorry, snowflakes, I grew up in the Marine Corps    sometimes it shows).

I find the flight manual coverage maddening:

Wing Flaps ........... TAKE OFF POSITION 
                                  FULL DOWN below 112 KIAS

That's the approach checklist.

And then under airspeed limitations, for Vfe it says: "Do not exceed this speed with flaps in full down position."

Both kinda suggest that it's acceptable to have some flaps out above Vfe. 

So there's fodder for the perpetual debate. But there's no doubt that "no flaps above Vfe" is the conservative approach. 

[Hank]

25 minutes ago, bradp said:

Gear out prior to FAF... but I was unsure whether I wanted flaps given my GS was something like 70 so I waited a bit longer than usual  

I usually fly speeds - but I’ve never memorized power setting.  Usually 18-15 will let me go down the ILS. 

Backwards to my normal procedure in my C. I have Takeoff Flaps out and drop gear a dot-and-a-half high on the glideslope, and no other changes, to come down prettynwell centered. This is approqching at 2300 and whatever power it takes to hold 105-110 mphi. But my Vfe = 125 moh and Vg = 120 mph, the reason for our different tactics. 

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, toto said:

I find the flight manual coverage maddening:

Wing Flaps ........... TAKE OFF POSITION 
                                  FULL DOWN below 112 KIAS

That's the approach checklist.

And then under airspeed limitations, for Vfe it says: "Do not exceed this speed with flaps in full down position."

Both kinda suggest that it's acceptable to have some flaps out above Vfe. 

So there's fodder for the perpetual debate. But there's no doubt that "no flaps above Vfe" is the conservative approach. 

Mine is quite explicit. YMMV, etc., etc.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

I’ve seen a few cracked flap plates.  There’s no reference in my POH so I treat the white arc as “any flaps” speed/ not full flaps speed.  Quite the opposite I use gear to get to flap speed. 

I do the same.

1 hour ago, Hank said:

For our vintage planes, Flap speed is 5mph higher than gear speed . . . .

They must have changed it sometime in the late 60's.

33 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

My flaps speed is 20mph less than gear speed... just like the 67 M20C I used to own.

I think it changed in 1968/69 to 125 (from 120).

My 1965 D/C is the same 120mph for gear and 100mph for flaps.

[skykrawler]

Aarusoam.   Your admonishment aside..... it says right in the M20J POH the white arc is the full flap operating speed.

Obviously, there are differences for the models and I thought the subject was a J/K.  The M20-217 bulletin was for older models and those with cracks probably wouldn't have them if the bulletin had been performed as recommended by the manufacturer.   I've seen cracks on Bonanza flaps.  Old airplanes get cracks even if they are flown within limitations.  I try to operate my airplane to alleviate unnecessary loads.

I said milk the flaps in not extend full flaps.  5 degrees flaps will help getting to gear speed if your 8 knots high...and you should already have the prop knob pushed in.  If you are 25 knots high then you screwed up.   On a IMC instrument approach I don't extend flaps until I break out.

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

I’ll put myself up for public critique.  

Me flying an ILS to something like 500. Skip to about 7:30.

Gear out prior to FAF... but I was unsure whether I wanted flaps given my GS was something like 70 so I waited a bit longer than usual  

I usually fly speeds - but I’ve never memorized power setting.  Usually 18-15 will let me go down the ILS. 

@MBDiagMan Remember that your 3-Deg glideslope and your required descent rate are ground speed dependent not airspeed.  Get the plane at least reasonably configured before the intercept.  You can go down and slow down but not aggressively/ abruptly in our planes.  Need more time to catch up with the plane just slow down. 

-B

 

Thanks Brad!  It was helpful on several levels.  Great job!