Landing a Mooney - Safety Culture

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

What if you're following a 787 and need to land past the 1000' markers?  Do you know what your sight picture should look like to put the plane down 1500' down the runway (or more!)?

The answer to those questions is yes, absolutely. And so should anyone who had a competent primary instructor. When landing you pick a touchdown point, it matters not where that point is on the runway.  You use pitch and power to hold the touchdown point stationary in the windscreen. The goal being for it to remain in the same place and simply get larger and larger as you approach, flare and land. A student should be able to do this before they are able to solo.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Shadrach

[FloridaMan]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

What really helped me become better at landing when I was relatively new....

Stop trying to land the airplane.

Do the approach at an appropriate speed and then when the runway is made, pull the power, then you get at an appropriate height level off just a few feet above the runway, and just keep it flying along level to the runway for as long as possible.  Keep flying as long as possible in ground effect.  That means let it float if it wants to float.  Or it will land when its ready.  This will require gradually pulling back on the yoke since angle of attack will increase and then when it can't fly anymore it will just settle down.

...so never try and land the airplane.  

Also this helps - once you are in that runway environment, don't be looking down at the pavement right in front of the airplane.  Look way down the runway.  Its hard to say why that helps since I think its more psychology but it helps me.

E

When I meet a primary student who's having trouble with their landings, I tell them to go to a shopping mall and ride the down escalator and note how when you step on, you're looking down, but then as you reach the bottom, you start to look forward. 

My technique is slightly different, I just hold the airplane 1/4 inch off the runway and then ease it down. 

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

When I meet a primary student who's having trouble with their landings, I tell them to go to a shopping mall and ride the down escalator and note how when you step on, you're looking down, but then as you reach the bottom, you start to look forward. 

My technique is slightly different, I just hold the airplane 1/4 inch off the runway and then ease it down. 

:-). I love the description.

Only problem is...we live in such the boonies around here...I don't think there is an escalator for a hundred miles around!  More. You would want an airplane or something to go find an escalator.  There is a LITTLE mall all on one floor.  I can get to a big mall in 35 minutes of Mooney Rocket time machine time.  140 miles of driving.

[Yetti]

10 minutes ago, Antares said:

When I meet a primary student who's having trouble with their landings, I tell them to go to a shopping mall and ride the down escalator and note how when you step on, you're looking down, but then as you reach the bottom, you start to look forward. 

My technique is slightly different, I just hold the airplane 1/4 inch off the runway and then ease it down. 

my home field has a good downhill for the first third or so...... it changes things.

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, Antares said:

When I meet a primary student who's having trouble with their landings, I tell them to go to a shopping mall and ride the down escalator and note how when you step on, you're looking down, but then as you reach the bottom, you start to look forward. 

My technique is slightly different, I just hold the airplane 1/4 inch off the runway and then ease it down. 

It’s a good analogy, the stall horn should chirp just as you step off the moving stair and onto the platform!

[jlunseth]

My log shows over 1400 landings (and the same number of takeoffs, that’s the good part) and around 1200 of them have been in my 231, with some in a J.  What I have come to learn, living where I live ( in the windy midwest) and flying where I fly (everywhere, east coast to the Rockies), that thinking you should land the same way every time is a serious mistake.  Now, I like the landings where there is little wind or it is right down the runway, I can hit all my numbers, be 70-75 over the fence, and the landing is nice and smooth, but thinking you can always do that is not just wrong, it is a good way to get into serious trouble.  In all those landings I can only think of four go arounds.  One was ordered by a controller when another guy did not get off the runway in time. All the others were caused by coming in fat and dumb, when the wind was howling.  Gusty, strong wind landings take a higher airspeed, more rudder, and one wheel landings although in my plane that second wheel comes down pretty fast.  

[Shiny moose]

My .02  I would ask some professional pilots or military pilots, bush pilots about flying by the numbers. I think you will find our most highly trained pilots will tell you, you should be on speed. How would you like your favorite airline pilot to be 40Kts to fast on landing, 40 extra KTS equals 4000 aditional feet of runway needed 

 

[FloridaMan]

Just now, Shiny moose said:

My .02  I would ask some professional pilots or military pilots, bush pilots about flying by the numbers. I think you will find our most highly trained pilots will tell you, you should be on speed. How would you like your favorite airline pilot to be 40Kts to fast on landing, 40 extra KTS equals 4000 aditional feet of runway needed 

 

[Cyril Gibb]

6 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

The one thing that I took out of the bag of tricks for the F is slips.  I slipped the C as if it were my Cessna 140.  I have been told that when slipping an F or J, jamming the rudders too fast can break it into a spin.  I will pass on that until. learn much more.

You can’t spin unless you stall.  Don’t stall.  If I’m too fast or too high after a sloppy approach, I slip my F.  No different than any other normal category certified aircraft.  How else can you land on one wheel in a blistering crosswind? .. slipping

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Shiny moose said:

My .02  I would ask some professional pilots or military pilots, bush pilots about flying by the numbers. I think you will find our most highly trained pilots will tell you, you should be on speed. How would you like your favorite airline pilot to be 40Kts to fast on landing, 40 extra KTS equals 4000 aditional feet of runway needed 

 

Indeed they calculate and fly numbers for every flight. But it probably doesn’t  have anything to do with the incredible safety record that commercial aviation has (safest way to travel) compared to GA’s safety record which is about on par with motorcycling. I don’t calculate numbers for every flight because the envelope on an M20F is not nearly as wide as most transport aircraft. However I did build out a spreadsheet with stall at any combination of weight, bank angle and configuration. I have used it for practical and educational purposes and it has helped me learn to ballpark speeds adequately. 

[Dream to fly]

I have to ask this to all that are by the numbers. What happens when you have an instrument panel failure? How do you get down? If flying by the numbers is best what is the backup and how do you practice? It would seem that knowing the planes flight characteristics and the sounds of the wind over the wings and the engine would be helpful. No one way to me is correct or wrong but as the OP states what is in your bag of tricks?
My instructor has done this to me several times where he will cover the panel and say now what. It's scary to have to rely on only sound and feel. Especially when you are taught to ignore feeling.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

[jlunseth]

1 hour ago, Shiny moose said:

My .02  I would ask some professional pilots or military pilots, bush pilots about flying by the numbers. I think you will find our most highly trained pilots will tell you, you should be on speed. How would you like your favorite airline pilot to be 40Kts to fast on landing, 40 extra KTS equals 4000 aditional feet of runway needed 

 

Airline pilots aren’t flying Mooneys.  They are flying aircraft with gear designed strong enough to sustain an offline landing, in fact that is how they do it. They land at an angle, keep the nose up, and use the rudder to bring the nose around in line with the runway.  We can’t.  They are also just a little heavier than we are and have rudders multiples bigger than ours.  For starters.  And I have flown with alot of bush pilots. Alot.  What do they do in cross wind conditions?  One guess.  They find a spot on the lake where they can land into the wind, whatever the wind is.  We don’t have that option.  I have even been right seat with a bush pilot who landed crosswise to the runway in Cordova in a turbine Otter filled with passengers and gear.  He stopped in under 200 feet.  We can’t, we have to land down the runway, and inline, for which we need rudder authority.

[carusoam]

Fly by configuration and power setting.... you probably trained on this in your primary days with a C152...?

If power setting isn’t available, use throttle position....

If you are fortunate, the stall horn is still working... for plan B.

If your stall horn has gone with the instruments... a longer runway would be an extra good idea...

Got a portable GPS?  Make sure you are landing into the wind..... for GS vs. AS error control.

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Just know your 1.3Vx range. For my C, its 70-75 mph depending on the weight for that landing. Marauder's friend back on p.1 did a good job of leveling off above the runway and bleeding off excess speed, but at 2 of the 3 airports I've based at, he'd of been in the weeds or trees . . .

I only have one landing video (but just bought a camera, look for more soon!), and it's had previois exposure here. Search vimeo for "Mooney landing khtw" and two pop up--the one my wife made from the right seat, and one that someone took from the ramp with a bit of gusty crosswind. Inside, you can see that my wheels touch on the 3rd stripe just after the stall horn sounds. The field is 3000' long, and I had to give a bump of extra throttle to clear the trees on short final. The only times I ever reached the displaced threshhold at the other end (13 stripes total) was rolling out for following traffic.

On my flight review this year, I made a rather fast no-flap landing at my new, unobstructed 3150' field, and didn't roll out to the end. Maybe 90 mph or so?

Learn your plane, how it handles, how to descend and how to get yourself to your desired airspeed at various weights and in varying conditions, because you never know. The nice controllers at Tornado n Fun had me sidestep to 9R, "the wide runway," and fly in ground effect over a mile before I could set down just past the crossing runway.

Fly a lot, practice and don't accept poor results. It will bite you one day . . . . . 

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

I have to ask this to all that are by the numbers. What happens when you have an instrument panel failure? How do you get down? If flying by the numbers is best what is the backup and how do you practice? It would seem that knowing the planes flight characteristics and the sounds of the wind over the wings and the engine would be helpful. No one way to me is correct or wrong but as the OP states what is in your bag of tricks?
My instructor has done this to me several times where he will cover the panel and say now what. It's scary to have to rely on only sound and feel. Especially when you are taught to ignore feeling.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

My panel is steam gages, so the odds of losing it all are pretty long. I had almost 300 hours in my C when starting seriously on Instruments. The CFII would periodically fail some instruments with paper and have me fly back and land over the trees. When she peaked behind the paper from time to time, she was always happy that whichever gage was pointing at the right  number (or close enough).

Practice, fly a lot, learn your plane and your power / configuration settings and the sight picture. If too much drops out, go somewhere longer, maybe with a tower. Have you done a practice No Gyro approach lately (just in case)?

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

I have to ask this to all that are by the numbers. What happens when you have an instrument panel failure? How do you get down? If flying by the numbers is best what is the backup and how do you practice? It would seem that knowing the planes flight characteristics and the sounds of the wind over the wings and the engine would be helpful. No one way to me is correct or wrong but as the OP states what is in your bag of tricks?
My instructor has done this to me several times where he will cover the panel and say now what. It's scary to have to rely on only sound and feel. Especially when you are taught to ignore feeling.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

I’ve landed twice with no airspeed because of bugs in the pitot.

It is a little disconcerting. I just fly the same power and sight picture I always did and everything worked just fine. 

[Shadrach]

31 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

I have to ask this to all that are by the numbers. What happens when you have an instrument panel failure? How do you get down? If flying by the numbers is best what is the backup and how do you practice? It would seem that knowing the planes flight characteristics and the sounds of the wind over the wings and the engine would be helpful. No one way to me is correct or wrong but as the OP states what is in your bag of tricks?
My instructor has done this to me several times where he will cover the panel and say now what. It's scary to have to rely on only sound and feel. Especially when you are taught to ignore feeling.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

Ah see that’s the whole point. Knowing and abiding by the numbers gives you a good and consistent frame of reference for when they are no longer available. I’ve never said I couldn’t fly by the seat of my pants, I can. I’ve been calibrating the seat of my pants for a decade. 

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’ve landed twice with no airspeed because of bugs in the pitot.

It is a little disconcerting. I just fly the same power and sight picture I always did and everything worked just fine. 

Exactly, but it would be admittedly more disconcerting in an unfamiliar aircraft.

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve landed twice with no airspeed because of bugs in the pitot.
It is a little disconcerting. I just fly the same power and sight picture I always did and everything worked just fine. 

Don’t forget you can use ground speed of the gps, subtracting wind speed, maybe add 5 knots just in case.

[Shiny moose]

7 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

I have to ask this to all that are by the numbers. What happens when you have an instrument panel failure? How do you get down? If flying by the numbers is best what is the backup and how do you practice? It would seem that knowing the planes flight characteristics and the sounds of the wind over the wings and the engine would be helpful. No one way to me is correct or wrong but as the OP states what is in your bag of tricks?
My instructor has done this to me several times where he will cover the panel and say now what. It's scary to have to rely on only sound and feel. Especially when you are taught to ignore feeling.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

I have to say that you are flying numbers already! For a particular power setting your airplane cruises in level flight at a particular airspeed these are 3 different numbers, AS, ALT, POWER. Example,  If you were to lose your AS indication and want to descend at that airspeed you were maintaining just lower the power setting number, the AS number will not change(a little fluctuation)and the ALT number will start down, when your ready to level off, put the power back to cruise power number, ALT number will stop moving and AS number is the same as it was. If you are training for your instrument rating you should already have these numbers for different configurations,  cruise ,120,90 KTS, level flight, gear up gear down, flaps up flaps down, flaps approach, 500 fpm decent, 750 fpm decent 500 fpm climb, missed approach, attitude for each, power setting for each. If your instructor covers up one of these and you know the numbered configuration of the others the hidden ones will be the same as needed. I’ve been flying a long time and never had a whole complete panel failure, or an instructor cover a whole panel to rely solely on sound of wind and engine noise, that would be a several point failure, electric, battery back ups,  vacuum, tach failure, MP gauge failure, AS tube failure, static failure all at the same time! You have in a bad day if that happens

 

[Mooneymite]

A stabilized approach is statistically a best practice.  Here's what the FAA says:

Factors of a Stabilized Approach 

•  Maintain a specified descent rate.
•  Maintain a specified airspeed.
•  Complete all briefings and checklists.
•  Configure aircraft for landing (gear, flaps, etc).
•  Be stabilized by 1,000 feet for IMC operations;  500 feet for VMC approach. 
•  Ensure only small changes in heading/pitch are necessary to maintain the correct flight path.

[Shiny moose]

19 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I can roll my Mooney on gently at anything between 60 knots and 90 knots. I can also land it with full flaps or no flaps and anything in between. And I'm happy to demonstrate it for anyone who wants to ride along. Obviously stopping distance between touchdown and stopped will vary with the speed.

I will take you up on that offer 90KTS at touch down , flaps full down, gusty winds , land on the mains. 

[Mooneymite]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

OK. I'll say it. Stuff can always happen, but generally speaking Mooneys are easy airplanes to land. This whole conversation is a bit confounding to me. 

I agree:  easy to land and a confounding (and somewhat disturbing) thread.

[Yetti]

I started the thread because there has been a disturbing trend in 2018 of Mooneys crashing and killing the pilots.   Somewhere someone said 9 deaths.   That is one per month.   That is abysmal safety culture.   At least two I can remember are stall spins in the landing phase.

We are trying to balance Shadrach's running off the end of the runway with too much speed to getting slow and stall spinning.

What is the best way to change the habits/training so we can change the trend?

[N201MKTurbo]

6 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Don’t forget you can use ground speed of the gps, subtracting wind speed, maybe add 5 knots just in case.

What GPS? This was 20 years ago.