TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[ZuluZulu]

7 hours ago, FastTex said:

Guys sorry for the naïve question, just catching up on things. Are there any approved APs for Mooneys (specifically F)?  

Yes.

1. Garmin GFC 500

2. End of list

[MBDiagMan]

The Garmin installation will cost three to four times as much as the Trutrak, but is a very nice autopilot and AVAILABLE when they said it would be.  Three times better?  No, but at least they didn’t tell a bunch of people that it will be ready next month and then well over two years later still perpetuating a rumor that it will be ready in a few months.

[ArtVandelay]

The Garmin installation will cost three to four times as much as the Trutrak...

How can you say that? When (or if) it gets approved and they start getting installed ...then we’ll see what it costs. Until then the price, like the date of certification is unknown.

[FastTex]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

How can you say that? When (or if) it gets approved and they start getting installed ...then we’ll see what it costs. Until then the price, like the date of certification is unknown.

I was wondering about that. I thought someone was already testing it around trying to get FAA certified and had shared this info.

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

How can you say that? When (or if) it gets approved and they start getting installed ...then we’ll see what it costs. Until then the price, like the date of certification is unknown.

How can I say that?  My math skills are adequate.  The Trutrak people said $7000 installed and I’m SURE that Trutrak would never tell anything that is not true.  The Garmin installation, unless you already have a G5 in place will top $20K, say at least $21K.  What is $21 K divided by $7K?

1 hour ago, FastTex said:

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, FastTex said:

I was wondering about that. I thought someone was already testing it around trying to get FAA certified and had shared this info.

Yes, There has been a Mooney seen at Maxwell’s ever since Trutrak told their ferry tale about “certification next month” back in October of 2018.  I fully expect that the autopilot works quite well, but the FAA apparently has yet to be asked for their opinion on the matter.

Edit:

I want to be clear that I am not in any way implicating Maxwell in the Trutrak/Mooney fiasco.  I fully expect that he is in no way responsible for the myth laid on us by Trutrak.  There happens to be a Mooney seen there with Trutrak graphics.  If you were building a new autopilot system and wanted it tested on a Mooney, who better to hire for the work than Maxwell?

[Sandman993]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

How can you say that? When (or if) it gets approved and they start getting installed ...then we’ll see what it costs. Until then the price, like the date of certification is unknown.

TT was saying 40-50hrs  labor back before they went dark. The notion that components are all in the main unit should reduce install substantially. Should be around $10k if they come to fruition before the 7% annual inflation since 2008 compounds too many times.
 

while you are correct, we don’t have an actual retail example...I can’t imagine it coming close to the extra expenses like 2) G5’s for instance. 

 

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

How can I say that?  My math skills are adequate.  The Trutrak people said $7000 installed and I’m SURE that Trutrak would never tell anything that is not true.  The Garmin installation, unless you already have a G5 in place will top $20K, say at least $21K.  What is $21 K divided by $7K?

That’s funny!

I’m not sure what part of the ether you’ll pulled those numbers from but a GFC 2 servo installation goes around for $15K, with the G5 AI.
Trutrak hardware and STC runs $5000, soooo assuming $100/hour labor rate, that’s 20 hours of labor.

I know TT doesn’t require any panel cutting because they fit in a standard 3” hole, but I cannot imagine someone be able to:

Pull instrument panel, install TT and making GPS connections, pull inspection panels and interior pieces necessary to run servo wires and install the servos and perform required tests in 20 hours. 

And with the GFC you can get auto trim and yaw damper, electronic AI so it’s not an apples to apples comparison.

 I’d bet the final TT cost will be close to $10K, so for the extra $5K you get the G5.

[Davidv]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

That’s funny!

I’m not sure what part of the ether you’ll pulled those numbers from but a GFC 2 servo installation goes around for $15K, with the G5 AI.
Trutrak hardware and STC runs $5000, soooo assuming $100/hour labor rate, that’s 20 hours of labor.

I know TT doesn’t require any panel cutting because they fit in a standard 3” hole, but I cannot imagine someone be able to:

Pull instrument panel, install TT and making GPS connections, pull inspection panels and interior pieces necessary to run servo wires and install the servos and perform required tests in 20 hours. 

And with the GFC you can get auto trim and yaw damper, electronic AI so it’s not an apples to apples comparison.

 I’d bet the final TT cost will be close to $10K, so for the extra $5K you get the G5.

I can confirm from personal experience a 3 servo GFC500 with G5 is around $15-16K from some of the shops that have done a lot of volume.

[Sandman993]

Just now, Davidv said:

I can confirm from personal experience a 3 servo GFC500 with G5 is around $15-16K from some of the shops that have done a lot of volume.

Really? You’ve had one done for 15-16 thousand??

I’ve heard of quotes that low, but never came across one. 15k would arouse some folks to look at garmin. As I have stated before several times, if you want to get full performance from the gfc 500, you MUST purchase and install a second g5. Period.
 

The last time I looked (summer 2019) a full trick pony gfc install with the g3x touch and trim was over $30,000!!!

You could get back to 23-25k if you would settle for the two g-5’s. Oh! Don’t forget the sales tax of an additional 8.5%.
 

if I could get an estimate under signed  contract for gfc 500 install for 15k... I’d ask someone to hand me a pen.

[Davidv]

1 minute ago, Sandman993 said:

Really? You’ve had one done for 15-16 thousand??

I’ve heard of quotes that low, but never came across one. 15k would arouse some folks to look at garmin. As I have stated before several times, if you want to get full performance from the gfc 500, you MUST purchase and install a second g5. Period.
 

The last time I looked (summer 2019) a full trick pony gfc install with the g3x touch and trim was over $30,000!!!

You could get back to 23-25k if you would settle for the two g-5’s. Oh! Don’t forget the sales tax of an additional 8.5%.
 

if I could get an estimate under signed  contract for gfc 500 install for 15k... I’d ask someone to hand me a pen.

That's correct, the shop didn't list hours on their quote but inferring a reasonable hourly rate it looked like about 35 hrs for the installation of both the G5 and autopilot including the removal of all my old stuff.  I'm hesitant to give the shop's name or details in a public forum because I don't want anyone getting upset if they don't get the same exact price but PM and I'd be happy to give you more info.

[drapo]

Ok guys, let's put that all into perspective... BK's Aerocruze100 aka Trutrak Vizion, has been certified, installed and flying in thousands of Cessna's and Piper's for almost four years now. You can even have a look at actual experience of those flying an Aerocruze100 on YouTube, especially this Piper guy : 

With that experience, it's easy to estimate the amount of time needed to install but also the performance and reliability of the Aerocruze100. My AME (A@P in Canada) has installed a few of them in C and P and find them easy to install and the average install is around 35 hours. Some avionics shop are still advertising the «Out the door price» or $8995 for an installed Aerocruze100 (https://barnstormers.com/classified-1639230-TruTrak-AeroCruze100-Autopilot.html) 

So I still joke around when it comes time to the BK adventure in the TruTrak marketing scheme and the FAA lack of performance, but I don't have the money Garmin is asking for their GFC500, when you add a couple of G5 and a GAD29, making the install time  75 hours+. And I personally don't care for the marketing strategy Garmin is using in making their equipments non-compatible with others. I'm just more like an open guy! 

 

[Navi]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:28 AM, drapo said:

Déjà vu all over again !  

  Tough crowd here! 

My comment was an "aside" from Andrew, thought I would share a whimper of news. 

Nothing official from He , TT or BK..

They don't have timelines for ANYTHING, they are (with the Aerocruise 100) just trying to get parts and get product out the door.. 

He is happy with the sales volume. If he could just get parts... 

Nav

[Navi]

1 hour ago, Sandman993 said:

TT was saying 40-50hrs  labor back before they went dark. The notion that components are all in the main unit should reduce install substantially. Should be around $10k if they come to fruition before the 7% annual inflation since 2008 compounds too many times.
 

while you are correct, we don’t have an actual retail example...I can’t imagine it coming close to the extra expenses like 2) G5’s for instance. 

 

Last I heard, they expected about 25-30 hours for the basic install in the Mooney.  That was from Zach in 2019, but I have lost contact with him.. 

Last was that both servos  were going under the back seat like in a Cherokee, but the Mooney was a tighter space to work. 

 

Here is a pix of the servo installation in an Arrow.  You may be able to tell of this is possible in your Mooneys.. 

 

Nav

Install image.docx

[Navi]

1 hour ago, Sandman993 said:

Really? You’ve had one done for 15-16 thousand??

I’ve heard of quotes that low, but never came across one. 15k would arouse some folks to look at garmin. As I have stated before several times, if you want to get full performance from the gfc 500, you MUST purchase and install a second g5. Period.
 

The last time I looked (summer 2019) a full trick pony gfc install with the g3x touch and trim was over $30,000!!!

You could get back to 23-25k if you would settle for the two g-5’s. Oh! Don’t forget the sales tax of an additional 8.5%.
 

if I could get an estimate under signed  contract for gfc 500 install for 15k... I’d ask someone to hand me a pen.

 

 

 

Grab it!

That is a VERY good price for a Cherokee install, with lots of room to work! The Mooney is a lot tighter, a lot more time needed... 

With a Cherokee, you pull the seats and one side panel , sit down and go to work. Lots of room for the bod and hands. Hardest part is installing the *^&^ circuit breaker! 

Begs the question, have they done one before? 

Nav

[Sandman993]

19 minutes ago, Navi said:

  Tough crowd here! 

My comment was an "aside" from Andrew, thought I would share a whimper of news. 

Nothing official from He , TT or BK..

They don't have timelines for ANYTHING, they are (with the Aerocruise 100) just trying to get parts and get product out the door.. 

He is happy with the sales volume. If he could just get parts... 

Nav

I’m a mercury marine dealer... the parts chain was broken during the covid period. A lot of peripheral parts are made in China and other places. 
Some if not all folks need a pass on performance where parts gathering is concerned. Plus Wisconsin seems to be on crack and doesn’t want to open. That’s where my product comes from.

somewhere along the line, our political class has sold us out to foreign interests for their own enrichment. Before you punch... I mean both sides. So a lot of stuff is from overseas.

good luck getting this all straightened out.

FFA doesn’t make parts, they just make paper and excuses IMO. “You know the thing”.

[drapo]

29 minutes ago, Navi said:

  Tough crowd here! 

My comment was an "aside" from Andrew, thought I would share a whimper of news. 

Nothing official from He , TT or BK..

They don't have timelines for ANYTHING, they are (with the Aerocruise 100) just trying to get parts and get product out the door.. 

He is happy with the sales volume. If he could just get parts... 

Nav

The comment wasn't directed at you but just to give some kind of an historic outlook to the TT/BK autopilot situation. I myself went to the factory in Springdale AR and wrote an article for The Mooney Flyer and COPA that touted the upcoming certification and approval for Mooneys back in 2018... At the time, I was impressed with the capabilities and pilot-friendly characteristics of the then TruTrak Vizion, not to mention it's affordability in both equipment price and installation time.

Still waiting!

[drapo]

5 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

somewhere along the line, our political class has sold us out to foreign interests for their own enrichment. Before you punch... I mean both sides. So a lot of stuff is from overseas.

I'm a fan of the TV program «The Shark Tank» where entrepreneurs are making their sales pitch so they can collect investments from the Sharks.

When the entrepreneurs tell the Sharks about how much it costs them to make that new and improved letter opener, they are told they could have it made in China or somewhere else for a fraction of the cost... I guess that's how the production of many elements have made it outside our countries!

Like one guy used to say: «It's a pay me now or pay me later kind of thing!»

[Navi]

19 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

I’m a mercury marine dealer... the parts chain was broken during the covid period. A lot of peripheral parts are made in China and other places. 
Some if not all folks need a pass on performance where parts gathering is concerned. Plus Wisconsin seems to be on crack and doesn’t want to open. That’s where my product comes from.

somewhere along the line, our political class has sold us out to foreign interests for their own enrichment. Before you punch... I mean both sides. So a lot of stuff is from overseas.

good luck getting this all straightened out.

FFA doesn’t make parts, they just make paper and excuses IMO. “You know the thing”.

  The parts supply for Marine parts is not the only chain that has imploded... the appliance industry is on  a "wait and see" back order status now... and there are many others.. 

I ordered some boat parts back in Nov, the last are just arriving now... 

Gona take a while to get this mess straightened out.. 

And the parts suppliers are having the same issue with raw materials. Doesn't matter if it is stuck on a Greyhound bus somewhere or still in the ground, if you don't have it.....   

Nav

 

 

[Navi]

19 minutes ago, drapo said:

The comment wasn't directed at you but just to give some kind of an historic outlook to the TT/BK autopilot situation. I myself went to the factory in Springdale AR and wrote an article for The Mooney Flyer and COPA that touted the upcoming certification and approval for Mooneys back in 2018... At the time, I was impressed with the capabilities and pilot-friendly characteristics of the then TruTrak Vizion, not to mention it's affordability in both equipment price and installation time.

Still waiting!

 No slight taken Sir!   (note smiley!)

Andrew is well aware of the pent up market demand, and now that he answers to someone else, the sales of the AeroCruise to Moonyites would look good on him!  

He shared some of the business issues BK was dealing with (like many other companied are facing, no real news)  Everybody always hedges their bets, but when the alternatives dry up at the same time as you principal suppliers, it becomes a tough time.. 

N

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, drapo said:

Ok guys, let's put that all into perspective... BK's Aerocruze100 aka Trutrak Vizion, has been certified, installed and flying in thousands of Cessna's and Piper's for almost four years now. You can even have a look at actual experience of those flying an Aerocruze100 on YouTube, especially this Piper guy : 

With that experience, it's easy to estimate the amount of time needed to install but also the performance and reliability of the Aerocruze100. My AME (A@P in Canada) has installed a few of them in C and P and find them easy to install and the average install is around 35 hours. Some avionics shop are still advertising the «Out the door price» or $8995 for an installed Aerocruze100 (https://barnstormers.com/classified-1639230-TruTrak-AeroCruze100-Autopilot.html) 

So I still joke around when it comes time to the BK adventure in the TruTrak marketing scheme and the FAA lack of performance, but I don't have the money Garmin is asking for their GFC500, when you add a couple of G5 and a GAD29, making the install time  75 hours+. And I personally don't care for the marketing strategy Garmin is using in making their equipments non-compatible with others. I'm just more like an open guy! 

 

I guess you get what you pay for.  It lacks a trim servo, lacks the option for yaw damper servo, follows track instead of heading, can't be used for instrument approaches, requires resetting the Baro at every baro change, and is generally too complicated to operate.

I've watched this pilot's review of the Dynon, and thought it, too, if compared to the Garmin G500TXi, was too complicated for general use.

[Davidv]

21 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I guess you get what you pay for.  It lacks a trim servo, lacks the option for yaw damper servo, follows track instead of heading, can't be used for instrument approaches, requires resetting the Baro at every baro change, and is generally too complicated to operate.

I've watched this pilot's review of the Dynon, and thought it, too, if compared to the Garmin TXi, was too complicated for general use.

Good point, if I were in the market for a new AP I don't think I'd want to pay nearly $10K for something that will pretty much only allow me to fly hands off on a blue sky day.  I suppose if ATC told me to turn left heading 090 I'd have to look at the difference between my current track and heading and then add/subtract that from the assigned heading to get my desired track for the AP.  Seems a lot like those cross country planning papers I had to fill out with an E6B when I was getting my PPL :). 

[Sandman993]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I guess you get what you pay for.  It lacks a trim servo, lacks the option for yaw damper servo, follows track instead of heading, can't be used for instrument approaches, requires resetting the Baro at every baro change, and is generally too complicated to operate.

I've watched this pilot's review of the Dynon, and thought it, too, was much too complicated for general use.

All those things you state is what I have now with the exception of altitude hold. I can live with that.

firstly, you need to know the TT can do a precision approach... just not certified for same. So before you brand the TT as special Olympics of autopilots... check it out.

im an old pilot... I could buy 15 garmin autopilots if I wanted to. I became disenchanted when they said $4995 back around 2015... back then, they left out the incessant change orders to complete the job and take you way over 20k to do so. It’s a matter of principle for me. I’m trying to let go of principles so I can be more like the young folks... just taking a lot longer than I thought.

I’m not going to use a single engine platform for hard imc... never thought that was a brainy thing to do once I got past the 300hr invincible, me pilot phase...if you want to fly like that, be my guest. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Navi said:

Here is a pix of the servo installation in an Arrow.  You may be able to tell of this is possible in your Mooneys..

It's not. In a Mooney this will have to go in the avionics bay in the tail.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Sandman993 said:

All those things you state is what I have now with the exception of altitude hold. I can live with that.

firstly, you need to know the TT can do a precision approach... just not certified for same. So before you brand the TT as special Olympics of autopilots... check it out.

im an old pilot... I could buy 15 garmin autopilots if I wanted to. I became disenchanted when they said $4995 back around 2015... back then, they left out the incessant change orders to complete the job and take you way over 20k to do so. It’s a matter of principle for me. I’m trying to let go of principles so I can be more like the young folks... just taking a lot longer than I thought.

I’m not going to use a single engine platform for hard imc... never thought that was a brainy thing to do once I got past the 300hr invincible, me pilot phase...if you want to fly like that, be my guest. 

I can't help but think of the resale potential. The TT might make sense in a C but not in a J. If you fast forward 5 years (or how ever many years it is before the TT is certified in the Mooneys), I'd expect the difference in value between two otherwise identical J's, one with the GFC500 and one with the TT, to me more than the difference in cost between the two autopilots.

I'm no Garmin fan and that has been well documented. But installing a TT in a J over a GFC500, will cost you much more than the difference in price between the two, when you go to sell.