How important is Nav2 to you?

[NJMac]

Installer is looking at my stuff and saying we should pass on installing the Narco that was going in com / nav 2. It works but he is pushing me to upgrade that and have a totally fresh panel and all new equipment.

 

Would you be alright putting in just a com in spot 2 like a Trig TY96A or would you want nav / com in the 2nd spot such as a GNC-255? Or would you volunteer another choice in the hat?

 

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[Oldguy]

If I were going to use my plane in IMC, I think I would be hard pressed to not have a NAV #2 because the first time I had NAV #1 go Tango Uniform in the soup, I would not be thrilled.

When we consider the redundant items in our plane we have so we fly in IMC safely, I would prefer to skip the COM #2 before I skip the NAV #2. Even the Narco could get me to the ground safely.

If I am carrying my family in IMC, it would not even be a question I would entertain. 

[steingar]

I had a new comm  put in mine.  Gotta have comm 2, even if its just to monitor guard.  The avionics guy recommended an Icom, I went along.  Turns out the Icon doesn't play well with the radio there already and has played hob with the install.  After all this all I could do was laugh.

[gsxrpilot]

I did a full panel makeover last year, and mulled over this issue quiet a bit. I would have loved to have added an IFD440 to my IFD540 to be Nav/Com 2. But while I believed Nav/Com 2 to be vital and important for IFR flight, it doesn't get used very much. 

I decided to replace what I had (KNS80 and KX196) with a good used KX165. It was relatively cheap, but it ensures that I have a secondary Nav and Com should the primary which is the IFD540, go out. 

It's good to have, but rarely if ever used and therefore not necessary to have the latest and greatest (read "expensive") option.

[EricJ]

If you have GPS, either in the panel or in a tablet, the 2nd NAV is not very useful.    I rarely use a VOR at all any more (especially since my autopilot died).   Just having one VOR is pretty much only a backup to gps nav (for me, anyway).

[MIm20c]

I have to agree with oldguy. I would have no problem putting the Narco back in but going without the second nav or gps would give me pause.  On BeechTalk a couple months ago a dealer sold off 8 Garmin 400 waas units for 2.5 amu each. That and a sl40 would be nice. Also a sl30 nav/com is always a good option.  Looking forward to seeing the final panel. 

[KSMooniac]

I've got dual WAAS GNS boxes (in the plane when I bought) and admit it is overkill. It is nice to have all the extra data fields visible, though. If starting from scratch, I'd probably lean towards a modern nav/com with ILS capability. I don't think I'd pay to put an older box, especially a Narco, into a fresh installation.

 

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[NJMac]

Thanks all. I do agree the 2nd nav probably wont get used much, if at all.

But i guess the same logic for a standby elec backup vac system can apply here. Id rather have it and not need it than vice versa. Im too young and the businesses doing too well to die an untimely death by crater.

Ill probably have him put in the garmin gnc 255 unless you all spend my money on something else?

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[DXB]

In some planes with WAAS GPS,  I suspect even the 1st nav radio sees very limited use in the modern era.  If doing a major panel upgrade, it may be worth focusing on beefing up redundancy of the modern tools as opposed to the old ones. 

[carusoam]

Number 2 gets used a lot when verifying where you are using number one....

With a powerful WAAS number one... number two is probably only going to get used when something fails with number one.

Narcos have a tendency to breakdown in simple ways like old plastic gears for the tuning knobs....

So have a good #2.

 If you are paying for installation / wiring of an old #2... don’t waste the install costs on the old Narco... waste them on something newer... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Thanks all. I do agree the 2nd nav probably wont get used much, if at all.

But i guess the same logic for a standby elec backup vac system can apply here. Id rather have it and not need it than vice versa. Im too young and the businesses doing too well to die an untimely death by crater.

Ill probably have him put in the garmin gnc 255 unless you all spend my money on something else?

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My second Nav/Com was a Narco until I had issues with it and the GTN 650 at the same time. I was IFR at the time and trying to find my cheat sheet for lost Com wasn’t a lot of fun.

The Narco will eventually have a problem and then you will be stuck trying to find someone to fix it. And when they can’t fix it, you will be looking at a replacement that will have a different size than that nice cutout your new panel has in it.

I went with the GNC 255B. If you don’t want to go on the high end, there are other Nav Com options. Personally, I am not going to put my trust into an iPad solution for navigating if my solo Nav Com fails.


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[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Installer is looking at my stuff and saying we should pass on installing the Narco that was going in com / nav 2. It works but he is pushing me to upgrade that and have a totally fresh panel and all new equipment.

I think a standby nav/com in Nav 2 is important, especially if you have a GPS nav/com like a Garmin or Avidyne box.  The catastrophic failure mode will be a failure in the GPS unit that kills power to the box, and then you will lose EVERYTHING you thought you had.

That being said, I think that is a rare enough occurrence that it doesn't make sense to get a fancy-schmancy nav/com or a second GPS box unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

[Jim Peace]

Just did a totally new panel and no Nav 2 for me.  I will carry a stratus and my iPad for backup and I am sure I will be fine.....

 

[Bartman]

I have been thinking about this very issue. I have a KX-170B that came with the plane when I bought in 2007 and still works great. Except to listen to Weather or 121.5 I have never really used it.  Yeah I check the radio from time to time, and check the VOR and ILS on occasion, but otherwise has never been used. But what if I had a complete electrical failure ? What if I just wanted to clean up and simplify the panel? What if it dies should I fix it, replace it, or remove it? 

I get lots of information from Stratus/Foreflight/Horizon, a 396 and my iPhone. In the event of loss of NAV/COM I'm sure it would get me down safely, and if able squawk 7600. 

[Bob_Belville]

When I redid the panel 5 years ago I kept the KX155 w GS as #2 NavCom. I mostly use it to listen to ATIS/AWOS/ASOS and to monitor the element freq when flying Caravan formation. The Nav side of the 155 can be displayed in the Aspen and drive the STEC if the GTN were to fail. 

But I did not have to spend money installing the older radio which might make it a different decision.

[jetdriven]

17 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Just did a totally new panel and no Nav 2 for me.  I will carry a stratus and my iPad for backup and I am sure I will be fine.....

 

You gonna be able to shoot an approach to 200 and 1/2 with an iPad? or let me ask it a different way.  How low in those clouds are you going to use an iPad to get down?

Edited April 2, 2018 by jetdriven

[kortopates]

I personally wouldn't fly IMC with only one NAV. Your only one radio or one indicator failure away from having an totally unnecessary emergency. It could be really dire if not in a radar environment and in the mountainous west. I personally wouldn't want to put my trust in a iPad for navigation - its a situational awareness tool. 

That said, both my Nav/GPS/Comms get a full workout. For instance, one radio is dedicated to ATC while the other is limited to airports. This allows me to keep switching ATC frequencies while I am using the second radio to get ATIS, and then set up the tower and ground freq at the arrival airport. The second GPS is not as critical since these boxes are very reliable but helps to ensure my fall back won't be to VOR navigation. But it also sure helps with other chores such as monitoring nearest airports while navigating on the other. it also allows letting me use the utilities on one without losing prime navigation on the other like programming in the descent rate required for passing fix restriction ahead or for a long descent from altitude to put me at TPA a mile out ....

[jetdriven]

GTN series and SL30 both have the ability to monitor the standby frequency. I can see the point in not caring about a second COM in this instance but no second NAV? As Paul says, you're one failure from a serious emergency.

[carusoam]

Expanding on what Nav 1 is....

a good one has more than one radio in it...

• vor
• ils
• gps
• com

This allows for lots the flexibility to absorb different failures that don’t wipe out all its skills...

If your Nav2 is solely a VOR with no com skills... it isn’t much of a back up device at all... in its best condition.

 

If you intend to fly in IMC, your second radio gets used all the time...

I have 2 navcoms... a separate GPS, and an ADF... four nav radios....

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Critical nature of WAAS and ILS... (precision approach nav equipment)

These are the things that Byron is pointing out... if you only have one radio that can bring you to 200’ agl... you have to really start planning your IFR flights when the IMC gets low or variable...

A VOR typically needs ceilings to be above 1000’ agl...

Ever practice a precision Radar(?) approach? (There is a name for this ATC aided approach)

Question for the OP...

Instrument rated?  Want to be? Intend to travel in IMC?

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

Critical nature of WAAS and ILS... (precision approach nav equipment)
These are the things that Byron is pointing out... if you only have one radio that can bring you to 200’ agl... you have to really start planning your IFR flights when the IMC gets low or variable...
A VOR typically needs ceilings to be above 1000’ agl...
Ever practice a precision Radar(?) approach? (There is a name for this ATC aided approach)
Question for the OP...
Instrument rated?  Want to be? Intend to travel in IMC?
Best regards,
-a-

Yes, about 15 hrs into my instrument ticket. Close to taking the written. Don't plan to intentionally get into hard imc but ill certainly use the ability if necessary.

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[carusoam]

Nav 2 will allow you to identify intersections when your GPs antenna gives you a hard time.

Just another reason to have more stuff to get you safely to the ground...

Avoiding hard IFR is nice, but to do that around here, you would be avoiding flying a lot of days with ceilings above 1000’

Discuss with your CFII for how they handle this in your area...

West Coast gets low ceilings near the coast line that come and go quickly,  VFR conditions may not be all that far away...

East Coast gets some pretty low ceilings that can spread really far and wide making fuel requirements a challenge...

Old School east coast training included flying out over the ocean, descending below the clouds and returning in VMC was touted.  Completely silly because clouds come with fog too....especially over the ocean...

From my experience... Avoiding hard IFR, means you may not ever fly approaches... until the skills atrophy...  

Do you fly east or south of the Great Lakes much?  Lots of moisture and clouds come from the large bodies of water...

Nav/com 2 will be pretty much a critical item going forwards...

having two methods of getting to the ground, WAAS and ILS is icing on the cake.

I think I just sold myself on updating my Nav1!  

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

As an amateur pilot with a fairly well equipped instrument platform for an airplane, I don't ever shy away from instrument conditions.  I practice and like to think that my minimums are those printed on the chart/plate.  Because I don't earn a living as a pilot, I don't ever have to fly, but I do look for opportunities to get Actual. 

I've only once, in ten years as an instrument rated pilot, had an opportunity to shoot an approach to minimums. Maybe it's living here in Texas? But we do travel. I've got lots of Actual instrument time, but just never any really low approaches. 

So I do believe I'd be fine with my iPad/Stratus/ForeFlight as my backup in the cockpit. The one and only time I did shoot an approach to 200 and a half, I didn't have to. I've always had the fuel/speed to get to VFR conditions if I lost my panel or just wasn't comfortable with the approach. 

We hear all the stories of being IMC, flying on fumes, on that "dark and stormy night". It just every time I think I'm gonna get to be the hero, we break out at 2500 and Approach says to expect the visual. 

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

You gonna be able to shoot an approach to 200 and 1/2 with an iPad? or let me ask it a different way.  How low in those clouds are you going to use an iPad to get down?

I do not even want to shoot an approach to 200 1/2 with my new GTN and new G5 indicators.  No matter how much money you put into these planes, and I have put more than most in my C it is still a lawn mower with wings.....don't fly where you don't belong.........

I have owned my plane 3 years and have done one IMC approach in semi VFR conditions.

 

[Bartman]

Had the IR for about 8 years and not afraid to fly IMC to minimums but have only done it about 5 times that I can recall. Most of the time it's break out well above minimums, and often into MVFR or VFR.  I want to fly to work today and it would give me an opportunity to shoot an approach and would expect to break out at 1000ft. However, the only reason I'm not flying today is there are multiple freezing levels between the surface and cruise altitude along my route of flight, and I would be in IMC for about an hour. Hopefully this is the last time I have to drive until next winter.

I suppose if my trusty old KX-170B NAV/COM #2 died I would replace it in some manner, but if I was flying out west or in hard IFR all of the time it would more of necessity than it is now.