How many hours is too many??

[thekubiaks]

I'm shopping for another plane and somewhat new to Mooney's,  how many hours TT do you start becoming concerned.  If a M20J had 5000 hours would you be concerned??  Thanks.

[Guest]

An average of 100 plus hours per year for a private airplane is the norm, more is not really an issue.  At 5000 I wouldn’t be concerned.

A thorough PPI is needed no matter what.

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

How and where an aircraft was when it was not flying is probably more important than flight hours.

An ad that says, "always hangared in AZ" would catch my interest before one that said, "low hours".

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, TKs...

 

Technically there isn’t a time limit on the M20 airframe.

Technically There isn’t a number of hours when the airplane turns into a pumpkin.

Engine time is generally 2,000 hours between recommended overhauls.  For private aviation, many people extend this limit on condition... then have it overhauled.

There isn’t a known limit to number of OHs than can be performed on the engine.  Realistically, you run into wear limitations on expensive parts like a crankshaft.

All the wear parts on moving pieces can be swapped out with new parts.  Bearings, and rubber pieces have some limitations before they show some age or wear...

All the engines have bolt on parts that are relatively easy to get overhauled or replaced.

For all the aluminum parts that can be damaged... there is a factory in TX that builds parts for Mooneys.

Just be aware, buying a new wing from the Mooney factory is going to be at new airplane prices, not 50 year old used Mooney prices.

My first Mooney had about 5,500 hours on its third engine when I acquired it...

Did that help? Did I miss anything?

Private Pilot thoughts only, I may have been in your shoes once... 

Know what a PPI is.  Know the value of a plane stored in a hangar.  Know the value of a plane that is flown often...

My first plane sat outside for way too long, unused...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[gsxrpilot]

Jimmy Garrison told me once that he didn't like to buy Mooneys with over 5000 hours TT. I think it was a polite way of telling me he didn't want to buy my M20C. 

There are many factors to consider when shopping for a vintage Mooney. And all of them will be more important that TT on the airframe. It's a factor, but the very last one on my list.

[thekubiaks]

Thank you all for the replies. 

[Mark89114]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Jimmy Garrison told me once that he didn't like to buy Mooneys with over 5000 hours TT. I think it was a polite way of telling me he didn't want to buy my M20C. 

There are many factors to consider when shopping for a vintage Mooney. And all of them will be more important that TT on the airframe. It's a factor, but the very last one on my list.

Any reasoning on that?  Or just not his market?  I would be curious if the other airframe guys, P, B and C have more or less hours on average than our superior Mooney airframes model year being the same.

 

[larryb]

I'm going to take the opposing side. I would be very concerned about buying a plane that has 5000 hours. I agree with the posters who say there is no real limit and good maintenance can give you an unlimited airframe life. My problem is how much of that great maintenance occurred? And more importantly, now much of that maintenance is going to occur on my dime? A lot of mechanisms are going to wear significantly in that time, and how many of those am I going to have to pay to fix? So for me to buy this 5000 hour plane it had better come with excellent and proven maintenance or a very very attractive price.

 

Larry

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Mark89114 said:

Any reasoning on that?  Or just not his market?  I would be curious if the other airframe guys, P, B and C have more or less hours on average than our superior Mooney airframes model year being the same.

 

Probably just not his market.

[carusoam]

Jimmy is the guy to see when you are looking for your second Mooney.

The one you select because you know it is exactly what you want.

All American tends to deal in the Premium aircraft Market for Mooneys.

Visiting their shop is incredibly helpful if you are still trying to select which Mooney is the best fit for you...

They typically have a few of the various Mooneys on site...  http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

I bought my second Mooney there...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Hank]

Someone here has a Mooney pushing 10,000 hours. Maybe he will chime in about any unusual maintenance issues he has experienced in the years he has owned his Mooney.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, larryb said:

I'm going to take the opposing side. I would be very concerned about buying a plane that has 5000 hours. I agree with the posters who say there is no real limit and good maintenance can give you an unlimited airframe life. My problem is how much of that great maintenance occurred? And more importantly, now much of that maintenance is going to occur on my dime? A lot of mechanisms are going to wear significantly in that time, and how many of those am I going to have to pay to fix? So for me to buy this 5000 hour plane it had better come with excellent and proven maintenance or a very very attractive price.

You wouldn't want an Encore with that many hours, but most of the C's and E's should be in that neighborhood or they haven't been flown enough and that's even more concerning. Unlike the engine, the airframe can be pretty easily inspected during a proper PPI to determine if the airframe has been properly maintained or not. Certainly there are some spots like under the tank sealant that can't be inspected, but there isn't any maintenance that would solve that and corrosion can happen in a lot less than 5000 hours. 

With a clean PPI, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a C or E with over 5000 hours on the airframe.

[ohdub]

My J has over 7,000 hours on it, I've had it for the last 3 years and almost 300 hours. So far I'm very happy with the airplane and have had no major issues - and no it's not for sale :). @M20Doc has been looking after it, both currently as well as for a number of years before I bought her, so I think that helps!

[carusoam]

Our friend with the 10,000hr machine loves to discuss his fabulous machine... hopefully he will be around this evening...

Essentially, care and feeding is everything...  no natural limits come to the well cared for bird.

Leave a plane outside, uncovered, unpainted, unused for years, or run an engine hot for hours on end, are signs of expensive maintnenance possibly being needed.

It really helps to know the owner, to better know the plane...  so much to learn...

Best regards,

-a-

[lifendet]

11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Jimmy is the guy to see when you are looking for your second Mooney.

The one you select because you know it is exactly what you want.

All American tends to deal in the Premium aircraft Market for Mooneys.

Visiting their shop is incredibly helpful if you are still trying to select which Mooney is the best fit for you...

They typically have a few of the various Mooneys on site...  http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

I bought my second Mooney there...

Best regards,

-a-

 

I second on a good buying experience with All American. Bought my first J from Jimmy and couldn't be more happier. 

[Bartman]

My bird has 5500 hours in 40 years. That comes to about 135 hours per year. She was used for business travel for a long time, hangared, and somebody loved her before I found her. Last year we re packed the jack screw. This year we strip and reinforce the upper cowl with carbon fiber, repair And replace cowl fasteners, and paint the upper cowl. Oh and upgrade to IFD 440 and remote mounted AXP322 transponder completed.

I have no issues with corrosion and no issues with 5500 hours. 

[Andy95W]

My M20C has about 7500 hours.  

Over 4000 of that was flying pipeline patrol in Illinois.  Low power, low speed, low stress, low corrosion.  It's in very good shape.

Just like with pilots, hours aren't always the same.  Quality, not quantity, are what matter.

[Skates97]

Mine is a 1965 and had just over 5,200 hours on it when I bought it in Dec 2016. It also came with all the records on the plane, with the exception of the original prop log but the prop had been replaced 7 years prior and the log for that one was complete. The case of paperwork that I received even included a letter from the original owner written to his friend that he sold the plane to explaining why he was asking for a certain price, that he didn't know of any issues with the plane, but "you can't ever know everything that might come up." (What you might expect one friend to say to another if he were selling his favorite car). I am the fourth owner and have been very happy with the plane. I spent some time getting to know the owner that I purchased it from, I personally think that vetting the person selling the plane ranks up there in importance with the PPI. You can learn quite a bit about the plane by learning about the owner.

[bradp]

When I was looking for a plane there was an 8000+ hr plane that flew several hundred a year almost daily commuting in Texas (a green J model).   The thing was maintained by Dmax if I recall.  Probably wouldn’t be much deferred maintenance on that plane.   It went off the market lickedy split.  It’s not so much so much about the hours as the individual aircraft. 

[jlunseth]

TT is an airframe number.  Mooney’s don’t have an airframe limit.  Of the aircraft that do, the limits are generally 10,000 hours or more.  There is such a thing as an airframe overhaul.  They are not that uncommon for, as an example, DeHavilland Beavers and Otters that operate in Canada for fly-out fishing or hunting.  I believe the limit on those is 10k, not bad for aircraft that were built in the middle of the last century.  By the time an aircraft gets to a TTAF limit, pretty much everything inside the airframe has been rebuilt at least once.  It would take five engines, for example, to make a 10000 total airframe time in most Mooneys.  TTAF is not very relevant for Mooneys, the wings are not going to fall off.  There is no limit.  Pre-buy will tell you if there is an airframe issue such as corrosion.  The bigger questions are what shape is the engine in, how old are the avionics, does it need paint and interior.  Lots of those older aircraft have panels where the stuff in them can’t be repaired anymore, if it fails you need to scour the planet for a used, working replacement, or bite the bullet and buy new technology.

Edited March 19, 2018 by jlunseth

[gsxrpilot]

There are lots of numbers that need to be evaluated and will certainly effect the value of a Mooney. TT is the least important of all the numbers.

In fact, I wish TT would be replaced by UL in all Controller Mooney adverts.

[RLCarter]

Airframe TT was fairly low on my list. As most have said, a thorough Pre-Buy will tell you more of what your getting. Engine TT is a different animal

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

There are lots of numbers that need to be evaluated and will certainly effect the value of a Mooney. TT is the least important of all the numbers.

In fact, I wish TT would be replaced by UL in all Controller Mooney adverts.

I agree although anything over 8 at this time would have me looking elsewhere. 4-6 makes no difference to me. 

[Oldguy]

I bought my J with nearly 5000 hours on it in 2013. It was well maintained, flown regularly, and, at one point, owned by the same group for 17 years. My mechanic calls it one of the better maintained planes he has seen in his 35+ years of working on planes. So I would say a 5k+ hour airplane can be as good or better than a low time one, but everything depends on the care and feeding it received during those hours.

[jaylw314]

IIRC, Mike Busch had a webinar about metal fatigue, where he suggested the fatigue life for aluminum wing spars given the stress cycling they receive is probably upwards of 20,000 hours.

OTOH, 5000 hours gives a lot of opportunity for corrosion and bad maintenance, which are probably the bigger issues, but these are more related to time, the environment, and the owner than it is airframe hours.  Anal record-keeping by previous owners would be reassuring, although not a guarantee.