VAL avionics thoughts?

[Jim Peace]

https://www.valavionics.com/

the rep was in the shop today where I am installing my $$ Garmin stuff. 

1/2 the price and they look fine for the money. Certified as well I believe. 

 

 

[Andy95W]

Well, not certified, at least not the current versions.  From the Aircraft Spruce catalog:

Is the Nav INS 429 certified for IFR use in a certified IFR airplane?  
The Val INS 429 is built to TSO standards but is not TSO certified. It is up to your local FAA office if this instrument will be approved for use in your aircraft.

One of their early NAV units was TSOed, but not the current ones.  You will need a willing IA or A&P who agrees it is a minor alteration and the equipment is acceptable for him to install.  Putting it on a 337 and getting the FSDO to agree to it would make it 100% legal and unquestioned by a different IA down the road.

With that said, the Bendix/King KX-175 wasn't TSOed either, and those were installed in thousands of airplanes in the 70s and 80s without any difficulty or problems.

They used to show their stuff at OSH, but haven't for a few years.  They are very impressive units and look like they are nicely built.

[Jim Peace]

I thought the VAL website said they were certified. 

Its all lawyer talk to me. Can someone translate?

https://www.valavionics.com/installation-in-type-certificated-aircraft.html

Edited March 3, 2018 by Jim Peace

[LANCECASPER]

I had a Val com radio in a Cessna 182 - it was a great radio.

[Andy95W]

On 3/3/2018 at 12:56 AM, Jim Peace said:

I thought the VAL website said they were certified. 

Its all lawyer talk to me. Can someone translate?

https://www.valavionics.com/installation-in-type-certificated-aircraft.html

Well, I was really hoping another IA was going to submit a response to this can of worms, but evidently not so I'll give it a shot.

The document absolutely does not say that the radios are "certified". The question is whether or not they can be installed in a certified aircraft.  Additionally, from the Aircraft Spruce website, in a question about the VAL NAV radio:

 

---

Is the NAV 2000 certified for IFR flight?  
The NAV 2000 can be used for IFR flight in experimental aircraft only. 

---

Can the Val NAV 2000 be installed in a certified aircraft? Val´s website shows that this NAV 2000 meets or exceeds TSO standards. What does it mean?  
The Val 2000 cannot be installed in certificated aircraft. It meets the TSO specifications, but it is not TSO approved. 

---

This isn't the end of the question, however.  I was taught there there are 3 requirements for the installation of a piece of equipment in an airplane:

1.) Is the equipment allowed to be installed on the particular airframe, i.e., will it significantly alter the aircraft to the degree necessary to call it a "Major" Alteration?  This requires some additional level of approval, either an STC or a Field Approval by the FAA.

2.) Is the equipment itself allowed to be installed, i.e., is the equipment "legal" and is the installer sure that it won't create a hazard in the future.

3.) is the equipment installed properly.

----I'll try to answer these each in turn-------------------

1.)  The conventional wisdom is that avionics installations are not major alterations simply because they don't meet any of the standards of a major alteration, and therefore, it is a minor alteration and the only documenting needed is a logbook entry.  One piece of proof I have for this reasoning is the FAA itself in regards to the installation of a "legacy" GPS as an IFR installation.  The first step is to install the unit as a VFR installation and make a logbook entry.  After that, it can either remain a VFR only installation, or the airplane and GPS can be flown and tested in order to upgrade it to an IFR installation.  It's a simple logbook entry for the minor alteration of installing a piece of avionics.

2.) If the equipment in question is TSOed, or PMAed for the specific aircraft, or included in an STC, then this is simple- the equipment is "legal" and has been checked by somebody else, so no problem.  But what about an Owner Supplied Part, such as a McFarlane propeller control cable? Those aren't any of the above, but if it is supplied by the owner and verified by the A&P that it is appropriate, then it is legal to be installed on the airplane.  Therefore, if you gave the VAL NAV radio to your A&P and said that although it is not TSOoed, it does meet or exceed the TSO, and that could be checked against other equipment standards, then there really isn't a reason that the A&P couldn't install it and sign it off.

3.) The installation itself is on the installer and is legal if he follows accepted standards such as AC 43-13 and signs it off in the logboooks.

---- But here's the kicker- not everybody agrees with this rationale, so you'll have to find an A&P who agrees with what I wrote above.  

---- And there is the possibility that one day you may run across an FAA inspector who is stuck back in the 1970s who says that it's illegal, unsafe, and must be removed from the airplane immediately.

--- And there is the possibility that at your next annual, your IA will see the "offensive" radio, disagree with what I wrote, and demand that it be removed before he signs off your Annual.

BTW, I also think the VAL radios are very cool and I'm constantly trying to convince myself to install one (or more) of them.

[carusoam]

So I went to the site....

*********

From the VAL website...

• Acceptable for installation in type-certificated aircraft.

*********

 

 

Are they overselling the ability to install in all type-certificated aircraft?

They have a couple of planes that have been approved, but not Jim’s M20C yet?

What would be needed from Val or Jim (or Jim’s installer) to make this a workable solution?

 

I read this a couple of times and it clearly didn’t cover the base.  There is usually a long list of specific planes that have been tested and approved....?  The one sentence above, generated more questions than answers....

Now, what about the people that buy these devices to find out there isn’t an easy path?  Why would Val decide to take this route?

Thanks, Andy for sharing your input!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jim Peace]

56 minutes ago, carusoam said:

They have a couple of planes that have been approved, but not Jim’s M20C yet?

 

I am already committed to thousands of $$ in my panel with garmin stuff. 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

I am already committed to thousands of $$ in my panel with garmin stuff. 

I like your flush mount, which did you use?

[Jim Peace]

5 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I like your flush mount, which did you use?

Jake and John and their team of people from Daytona Aircraft Service has worked a miracle for getting the G5's and the JPI 900 Flush mounted on the left side.  I believe a lot of home grown fabricated parts and experience.  

So far I like what they have done and would recommend the shop to anyone who wants high quality work.  This is not the place for a CB.  It is the place if you want it done right.

[FlyTester]

A bit late to the punch, but I've got an M20C with a VAL-INS 429 that was installed 7 years ago as a minor alteration.  The avionics shop we used at the time, didn't even flinch.