The evils of the Touch and Go

[jetdriven]

Then full flaps takeoffs become SOP. Unless you land with half flaps then that becomes SOP. Neither is optimal. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by jetdriven

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Really?

In every airplane I've ever flown and gotten a type rating in, the flaps are raised to a position to decrease drag without a positive rate of climb....only the gear is initially raised with "positive rate".

Very strange....you teach this?

Yes absolutely. No reason to add the risk of reconfiguring in single pilot operation until positive rate. Most of the gear ups I'm personally aware of resulted from not following this simple rule.  Did I already post my destroyed v tail because this rule was ignored ? 

Aircraft not cerified to go around in landing configuration will have diffferent techniques 

 -Robert, CFII

Edited September 17, 2017 by RobertGary1

[Mooneymite]

14 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yes absolutely.

Nah....

We'll have to agee to disagree....

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Y'all should have just done that about 7 pages ago!

I offered that on Page 3 . . . Or was it Page 2?

I don't do TnG at my home field, it's only 3200'. But with 5000' or more, I don't worry about the end of the pavement surprising me.

Configuration changes on rollout:  Flaps Up (while holding throttle to idle); glance at trim, it's often close enough to Takeoff that I don't mess with it; cowl flaps are fixed; don't mess with Carb Heat (which is below the throttle). So it's often a normal landing, just no braking required, then push in the throttle. Once I'm airborn, the trim needs adjusting for climbout anyway . . . .

[ryoder]

I don't think it's worth it unless you are on a 900ft plus runway like KPIE so that you can actually attend to the post landing and pre-takeoff checklist.  

I don't even like doing them in my new Skycatcher unless there is a ton of runway remaining.

[Gone]

I replied in one of the previous discussions on this topic, but I will do so again here.

I do them.  

I create and maintain the muscle memory of what is needed in a go-round and it is very close to a touch-and-go (although I will agree with Bennett that they are not exactly the same).  For me, the most significant difference between a go-round and a touch-and-go is the DH/DA.  

Rejecting an instrument approach after the FAF because DH/DA is reached and the runway environment has not been acquired visually, or for some other reason, is one scenario.  

Putting it down on the runway to stable roll out and then immediately configuring to T/O because the aircraft is already rolling is the other scenario.

There are lots of ways to make a touch-and-go safe.  

• Set T/O flaps (as in an instrument approach) or no flaps for the approach.  Either condition does not require touching the flap switch until after climbing back through 1000' AGL (or not at all in the case of a no-flap landing).  [We practice no flap take offs and landings for the Mooney Caravan.].  
• 3 GUMPS checks before crossing the threshold.
• Know the "must be airborne by" point on that runway.  Do not attempt them on unfamiliar runways.
• Do not attempt them on runways less than twice your minimum comfortable landing (and T/O) length criteria.  For me that is 2500' (normally) unless something has allowed me to become familiar with a runway less than that.  So, for me, twice 2500' is 5000'.  My home drome is 3300' and I will do that one very, very rarely.  Too much traffic and too many students in the circuit ("pattern" for y'all).  The one I normally use is 6000' long and 5 nm away (Gatineau Executive Airport - CYND).  

When I get home from an overseas deployment, the second back-in-the-saddle training includes three non-precision and one precision approach.  That involves a possible total of five runways (2 at 4000', one at 5000', one at 8000' and one at 10,000') and I have done touch-and-goes on all of them.  I can complete two such sets of approaches in a day fairly easily and get my 6-6-6 in for IFR currency.

However, the first flying I do after I get back home is 6 or 7 touch-and-goes at Gatineau.  Confirms the cockpit flows and re-animates the muscle memory that will save my life in a bad situation.  Wax on, wax off. My personal criteria and more than 800 hours on my own Mooney makes them both manageable and safe.

Doing them is a safety issue.

[bradp]

I mentally prepare myself for a go around on every landing (almost akin to a pre departure brief for engine out).   I am not opposed to T&Gs until I had this happen on an aborted landing that essentially became a touch and go:

Summer day half tanks two adults. 

Somewhat gusty winds 3200x40 ft runway 

me with between 50 and 75 hours time in type

full flaps

there was some sort of object or encroachment that would have been nothing but I couldn't tell and decided to go around somewhere near my flare   

Off we go... but the flap limit switch was out of adjustment and the flaps wouldn't retract  (Murphy's law)  

the aircraft really struggled to climb; concerningly so... and not enough runway to land again  

once I was able to get to the top of the white arc the flaps popped and retracted   

So now I don't really practice touch and gos unless I'm landing in takeoff configuration (half flaps) and have a boat load of runway.  Mentally I prepare the sequence of items needed for a go around.  And... for any runway where I'm a bit dicey on the wind I go with half flaps.  

 

 

[steingar]

Couple really specious arguments here, and I see them over and over.

1.  Airliners do T&Gs.  Sure, airliners have multiple crew members who can share tasks and all of whom are professionals who fly far more frequently than most of us.

2.  Military aircraft do T&Gs.  Again, many have multiple crew members, and all of them are flown by professional pilots who's job it is to fly military airplanes.

[Tommy]

6 minutes ago, steingar said:

Couple really specious arguments here, and I see them over and over.

1.  Airliners do T&Gs.  Sure, airliners have multiple crew members who can share tasks and all of whom are professionals who fly far more frequently than most of us.

2.  Military aircraft do T&Gs.  Again, many have multiple crew members, and all of them are flown by professional pilots who's job it is to fly military airplanes.

Equally specious argument:

Mooneys are equally complex as airline and military jets...

 

[steingar]

Just now, Tommy said:

Equally specious argument:

Mooneys are equally complex as airline and military jets...

Never said they were.  Just said there weren't, on average, being flown by professionals who fly daily.  I'm lucky if I can fly once a week.

[bob865]

What I've gathered from reading:

1. Doing a touch a go like I learned during primary training; touch, roll, reconfigure for takeoff, full power, take off; is risky in a Mooney.  Risks include, but are not limited to:
   1. Running out of runway
   2. Re-configuring the wrong control i.e. pulling up the gear instead of the flaps
   3. Added workload could cause problems (GU landing) on the next circuit
2. Treating a touch and go as a failed landing/emergency procedure is potentially dangerous as well because the maneuvers are close to the ground and high power changes without re-configuring the aircraft causing potentially unexpected reaction of the plate.  However they seem important to learn:
   1. botched/bounced landing recovery
   2. emergency takeoff for the proverbial deer on the runway or other pilot pulling into the runway ahead of you
   3. Last second go around for any other reason

My take away->Nothing wrong with any of the above situations.  They all have risks all flights are normal or practice have risks.  A touch and go executed like 1 above seems like a pointless risk but many risks can be mitigated.  Touch and go's executed like number 2 are important and should be practiced to understand the reaction of the airplane, but are still risky, maybe more than option 1, but still a safety thing.

Understand your risks and practice good ORM/ADM.

BTW: The discussion started getting more and more heated the further into the thread it got. 

[Hank]

Bob--

Several topics elicit heated discussion here:

• Touch and Go operations 
• Flap uasge on takeoff
• Flap deflection on landing 
• Oil change frequency
• Use of Camguard or Marvel Mystery Oil
• LOP operations
• Spark plugs
• Climb speed
• Night flight
• Flight over "terrain"
• etc.

All i can think is that many Mooney pilots live and fly in the open flatness of the Great Planes, based on two mile long towered runways and only overfly large metro areas just before dark. Or else many are lilly-livered old maids who think it is crazy and reckless for me to have earned my PPL, transitioned into my Mooney and then earned my Instrument rating over hilly, dark and unforgiving terrain where I lived in WV. 

TnG ops have been part of flight training almost since the beginning, at least since wheels replaced landing skids. Suddenly, a half century after the introduction of retractable gear, tney are dangerous. Pppffffff!!!!

Form your own opinion. Most here will never change their minds on this subject, or those I listed above.

Welcome aboard anyway . . . . .

[RobertGary1]

12 hours ago, Ned Gravel said:

 

There are lots of ways to make a touch-and-go safe.  

• Set T/O flaps (as in an instrument approach) or no flaps for the approach.  Either condition does not require touching the flap switch until after climbing back through 1000' AGL (or not at all in the case of a no-flap landing).  [We practice no flap take offs and landings for the Mooney Caravan.].  
•  

What is the training benefit of practicing how the aircraft behaves on landing in the take off configuration? I could see practicing no flap landings as an emergency procedure but what is the training benefit of landing with take off flaps?

 

-Robert, CFII

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

What is the training benefit of practicing how the aircraft behaves on landing in the take off configuration? I could see practicing no flap landings as an emergency procedure but what is the training benefit of landing with take off flaps?

 

-Robert, CFII

What is the benefit of practicing every landing with full flaps regardless of actual weight, runway length or wind conditions?

[jkhirsch]

https://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=4457

[RobertGary1]

43 minutes ago, Hank said:

What is the benefit of practicing every landing with full flaps regardless of actual weight, runway length or wind conditions?

I highly recommend Don Kaye's video on landing Mooneys and his discussion on flaps.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

-Robert

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Equally specious argument:

Mooneys are equally complex as airline and military jets...

 

Only someone who has never flown a jet would say that. Its called the dunning-kruger effect.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

What is the training benefit of practicing how the aircraft behaves on landing in the take off configuration? I could see practicing no flap landings as an emergency procedure but what is the training benefit of landing with take off flaps?

 

-Robert, CFII

Is a no flap landing in our small relatively slow GA airplanes really an emergency?  I will land both of my planes with zero flap to full flap for practice, but have never felt that a no flap landing was an emergency.

Clarence

[salty]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Only someone who has never flown a jet would say that. Its called the dunning-kruger effect.

I think you need to read for comprehension before you hurl insults

Edited September 18, 2017 by salty

[jetdriven]

You should google dunning-Kruger effect and see how it applies here. These message boards and Facebook and the like are full of low time pilots who are quick to say the ATPs don't mean anything,  hours and type ratings and experience don't mean anything, and airline pilots don't know what the hell theyre talking about. " I once read about an airline pilot geared up his bonanza" is how it starts.

doctors don't know shit either. To hell with this dentist I do my own dentistry at home. And the scientists, the nerve of those guys say the climate is changing.what the hell do they know

Edited September 18, 2017 by jetdriven

[RobertGary1]

32 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Is a no flap landing in our small relatively slow GA airplanes really an emergency?  I will land both of my planes with zero flap to full flap for practice, but have never felt that a no flap landing was an emergency.

Clarence

Its certainly a training preference either way. Don Kaye makes a good argument for using full flaps for all Mooney landings. One benefit is that you only have to learn the characteristics of one configuration and it aids in speed control. In a Mooney there really isn't much crosswind advantage to using less than full flaps. A 182 with barn door flaps would be a different story.

-Robert

[salty]

11 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You should google dunning-Kruger effect and see how it applies here. These message boards and Facebook and the like are full of low time pilots who are quick to say the ATPs don't mean anything,  hours and type ratings and experience don't mean anything, and airline pilots don't know what the hell theyre talking about. " I once read about an airline pilot geared up his bonanza" is how it starts.

doctors don't know shit either. To hell with this dentist I do my own dentistry at home. And the scientists, the nerve of those guys say the climate is changing.what the hell do they know

Good rant. Doesn't apply to the post you quoted though. He was actually saying the opposite of what you think he was saying. Context is everything.

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You should google dunning-Kruger effect and see how it applies here. These message boards and Facebook and the like are full of low time pilots who are quick to say the ATPs don't mean anything,  hours and type ratings and experience don't mean anything, and airline pilots don't know what the hell theyre talking about. " I once read about an airline pilot geared up his bonanza" is how it starts.

doctors don't know shit either. To hell with this dentist I do my own dentistry at home. And the scientists, the nerve of those guys say the climate is changing.what the hell do they know

"Read for comprehension." The Dunning-Kruger Effect is about cognitive ability, implying that the pilots here who actually perform the oh-so-risky Touch and Go maneuver that has been taught longer than you have been alive are all of low mental ability, while your ATP self is intellectually superior. It has nothing to do with knowledge or experience . . . which is the argument that you want to make. Back to the drawing board for a new, hopefully more applicable insult.

Personally, my touch-and-go, night flying, IMC single engine prop self is out of this thread . . . if anything relevant comes up, someone send me a PM with a link to that particular post.

[jetdriven]

I was referrring to the originator of the statement that mooneys are just as complex as airliners. 

As a side note, a 747 is not a complex airplane. It has no controllable-pitch propeller. 

 Not high performance either. It doesn't have more than 200 horsepower. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by jetdriven

[steingar]

On 9/18/2017 at 1:12 PM, jetdriven said:

I was referrring to the originator of the statement that mooneys are just as complex as airliners. 

No one in this thread ever said that.