Decline in the value of a Mooney

[aschardt]

I'm surprised no one has asked this, but maybe it's because Mooney has filed BK several times in the past and always come out of it.  I'm starting to hear people say there are no parts available.  This has got to have a detremental effect on our plane's value.  How many Mooney specific parts are there on our airplanes that wear out?  It's a pretty unique airplane and without new replacement parts a buyer is going to think twice before dropping any premium to the next brand.  I find it hard to belive someone wouldn't at least pick up the parts mfg., maybe a large MSC?  Until someone does...  Love to hear some long time owners on this topic. 

[231Pilot]

I have wondered the same thing myself.

[carusoam]

Quote: 201Pilot

I have wondered the same thing myself.

[N601RX]

Factory parts not being available is a problem, not the end of the road.  There will be salvage parts available for a long time.  Many other aircraft no longer have factory parts available and are still flying.  This is one of the reasons the FAA allows owner produced parts to keep these planes flying.  The owner may or may not actually build the part to qualify, but they must participate in some phase of the manufacturing process.  The FAA also released an AC last year for vintage aircraft produced before 1980 that allows using "Similiar Common Parts" in many instances when the original part is not available with only a logbook entry.

[DaV8or]

Historically, orphaned aircraft have not plummeted in value. Also, there are no doubt some of the MSCs out there like Dugosh, LASAR, SWTA, Willmar, etc that will step in to produce common replacement parts. The Mooney is so good and so well loved, that it will be just fine.

[RJBrown]

I was in Las Vegas at the MAPA annual get together the weekend before 911 and all the changes that ensued. At that time Mooney was also in bankrupcy. There was discussion by those attending that meeting about forming an orginization to continue support of our planes. If no business steps forward to continue parts support I believe that a co operative organization will. There are more "orphaned" aircraft than there are those with OE support.

[N601RX]

If they did close down permently, it would be a huge benefit to owner if all the service information and CAD drawing could be placed in the public or owner domain.  Hopefully this would be something that MAPA would be able to help with.  If I remember correctly if you have a Mooney drawing of a part that gives all the dimensions and calls out the materials to use then it is pretty easy to legally make a one off part for the airplane you own.  If you don't have the drawings then the part has to be reverse engineered and you will have to hire a DER and get the FAA involved, which will get very expensive and time consumming.

[tony]

If the Mooney aircraft company ceases to exhist, the ownership of the type data will revert to the FAA.  Once that happens, anyone can using the freedom of information act, can gain access to it.  Then third parties will have an easier time building replacement parts.

[Bill_Pyles]

Along these lines, what are the top ten Mooney-specific parts that are a) likely to need replacing and hard to find?

[Shadrach]

Most Mooney specific parts are not wear items...landing gear and parts of the tail being the biggest concern in my mind. Most of the other stuff can or is being produced in the aftermarket...

[DaV8or]

Well, my personal experience is that I would like to get a 40:1 gear set for my electric gear actuator and they are not available anywhere from anyone AFAIK. These are Mooney specific parts that are not made by Mooney. An outside contractor makes them for Mooney and they require a minimum order to make them again. MAC at this time does not want to pay up front for another batch and so, no gears. They are probably a little outside the realm of owner produced parts.

What I have heard is that a number of the more famous MSCs are talking about solutions with one another. I feel confident solutions will be found, it will just take time.

P.S.-

I should also point out that should my current 20:1 gears fail, (they haven't) I would be covered. Several MSCs have serviceable 20:1 sets in stock. All is not lost.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Planes are going into MSCs for prebuys and leaving with $8,000 - $20,000 repair bills because they've been so poorly kept up.  Evidently there's enough parts availability to fix 'em well when the previous owner(s) have failed to be detailed in their upkeep.

I'm more concerned about the poor owner care in the 30-45 year old birds...I've witnessed one too many 5-digit annual inspections recently and some flat out dangerous repair work.

[John Pleisse]

I have owned a Mooney nearly 13 years and witnessed to ownership changes and now 2 bankruptcies. Just intuition, I think this round is different. Cirrus is in the game affecting the market, Diamond, Cessna, etc. As they go, we go. As for parts, somebody will see an opportunity to make a buck. It may be better for us long term. In the past, parts were a function of total prodcution. If production is removed from the equation, maybe a more robust and profitable parts supply can be made available.

[Shadrach]

I've not seen anything dangerous that was not fairly obvious, but I've seen some crazy MX stuff. I had an 8K annual 2009...prop governor was the biggest $$$. I asked for the plane back with a list of discrepancies because I did not like the attitude of the manager (the owners are great folks though). I paid with CC over the phone (big mistake) as I was picking the plane up after hours. I picked it up on a rainy evening with no one was there. My plane was sitting out in front with no lower cowl and the oil cooler was wired in place.

I had it towed to the hangar and started taking pics. The upper cowl was forced on improperly with the side stringers on the outside of the cowl. The outside of the cowl had been "wiped" with MEK, which took a good deal of the pin stripes with it (always hangared original paint). Rt fuel cap was not seated when "whoever" forced the tab down. I had to pry the tab up. I removed 3 ounces of water from the sump. The plastic trim from the interior was thrown in the baggage area. etc...

After that, I went through the bill and started circling anomalies. The most egregious error being 2.5hrs to install an exhaust pipe hangar. I confronted the owner and "offered" to show his mechanic a more efficient method for the exhaust work. I worked out the bill with the owner (-$800) and completed the repairs with my friend who's an IA. We fired it up and the right mag timing was so far out that I was getting a 600 RPM drop... back to the shop. They R&R'd it gratis, but said it would take about 8 hrs to finish (I've since done it twice in under 3hrs).

You'd think it was over but it's not. After return to service, the engine seemed "buzzy"... We tried a dynamic balance and it would not balance; we kept chasing the imbalance around the prop... .49IPS is the best we could get... I checked the timing and it was in spec. I am also fighting a mystery oil leak that is progressing. So, as I'm head scratching over the imbalance, our 2010 annual is due. The leak turns out to be a crack in the crankcase... During the injector line inspection I find a line that feels loose. After removing the line clamp, I discover that the #1 injector is not even hand tight it has clearly been chattering for a while as the threads are really beaten up. The line clamp was the only thin holding it in place.

Did the injector vibrate loose? doubtful... I think it more likely it was cross threaded and felt tight. I think I had an intake leak at the loose injector that caused the buzz. I think the buzz transmitted through the generator to the mount and caused the crack in the case.

Because of this and other experience I know do almost all of the MX on my bird under supervision. I hung the repaired engine on it and it's worked out beautifully.

Why did I include this in this thread... because 30 hrs of bad mx can devalue your Mooney faster than anything short of a crash... and it's a gift that can unfortunately keep giving.

[Becca]

Quote: Bill_Pyles

Along these lines, what are the top ten Mooney-specific parts that are a) likely to need replacing and hard to find?

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I'm more concerned about the poor owner care in the 30-45 year old birds...I've witnessed one too many 5-digit annual inspections recently and some flat out dangerous repair work.

[Parker_Woodruff]

True...

The sad part is an M20F is one of the least expensive "complex" airplanes to keep running...I'd take one over a Piper Arrow from the same model year any day...

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

True...

The sad part is an M20F is one of the least expensive "complex" airplanes to keep running...I'd take one over a Piper Arrow from the same model year any day...

[N9937c]

Talk about BAD mechanics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

There is one in Odessa that takes the cake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. A buddy of mine with a Turbo Arrow (tsio 360 fb) put his plane in the shop  for some service. Superwrench sends the fuel system off for O/H. Puts it back on returned to service. Owner starts flying plane but has some problems with engine dying upon landing. I go fly with the student pilot and take off fuel flows are 15 -16 gph instead of 23-24. TALK ABOUT LEAN OF PEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Back to shop, fuel system sent off again reinstalled. Again too lean. send fuel system off to different shop, still cant make run right.  Gets owner quotes on rebuilding engine and his logbook entry goes as follows:

One or more cylinders possibly cracked.

Which cylinders? Possibly cracked?  Compressions all were the same as last annual. Passed spray and stain check. Had my mechanic come over and in 3 hours had fuel system lined out!

CAN YOU IMAGINE THIS IN A LOGBOOK?   

larry

If you ever need service in Odessa, call me for this guys name. You notice I didn't say mechanic (guys). Far from mechanic!

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

True...

The sad part is an M20F is one of the least expensive "complex" airplanes to keep running...I'd take one over a Piper Arrow from the same model year any day...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: aviatoreb

 You may get a beautiful M20F for say $60-70K?  But what would such an airplane cost new in today's market?  $350k?  So as far as maintenance and replacing aging parts, you are maintaining a 350k airplane. My Mooney Rocket developed two squaks in one flight yesterday - my ammeter started bouncing and my cowl flaps wouldn't close - not even on the ground.  Compare that to a piper cub where the ammeter never bounces since there is no electrical system and the cowl flaps never get stuck.  I presume my alternator will need to get replaced and it will cost the same in my 81 rocket as if it were a 2007 newish acclaim.

[PTK]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

Yes, not only are we maintaining a plane that would cost $350K if available new, it is a 45 year old airplane.  We buy parts and labor at 2011 rates, not at the rate your granddad might have paid when he bought a Mooney. 

[John Pleisse]

Valuation based on maintenance, aquisition price and value is great, but there are a few things people don't consider:

1) The days of buying a plane, flying it for five years, not maintaining or improving it and expecting to earn 5% on your investment are Oh-vah......forever.

2) People never factor in the value of actually flying the plane.

3) Sale or aquisition price have little to do with utility and overall ownership

4) In 45 years, no bankrupcey or sale of MAC (our 8th time now) has desimated valuation. I wonder about this time.

If you intend to own it and fly it, buying a Mooney and pouring money into it is a good bet. In the end, you'll do well.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: allsmiles

1.  $60-$70K is way underpriced precisely because it doesn't exist new,  and

2.  you are lucky to have a $350K airplane for only 60-70K!

Combining these two views you win!  Keep the airplane in top shape and enjoy it !!

[PTK]

Quote: aviatoreb

I agree completely with both points.  I was just saying that not all aspects of the ownership are proportional to 60k, but more like 350k.  So we should expect it is a substantial cost to keep our beautiful airplanes in tip top shape.  And a responsibility to ourselves if we want to step into a machine that is worthy of how much we may value our own selves.

My airplane is far from an investment in my mind.  It is simply my pride gem.  If I get something back from it someday well bonus.  Meanwhile, it is my green machine (no its not so fuel efficient - its a rocket - but it is painted green.)