Looking to get into a Mooney

[klystron]

Ok, so I am strongly considering going with N241RC. He said he would take $57,000 for it, which is a little higher than I would like but it seems like an ok price for a relatively low time M20J with decent avionics. The logbooks prior to 1995 were lost and reconstructed, but the engine was overhauled in 1999 and work on the overhauled engine is all logged. From the airframe logs one entry states that the entire aircraft was cleaned and treated with Corrosion X Inhibitor in 2012. I can't find any mention of the gear pucks being replaced or the wing tanks resealed. The seller is an A&P but had someone else do the last annual inspection dated 6/20/2016. 

One interesting thing I noted was that almost every annual inspection ended with "Removed bird nest from tailcone"...

[Aerodon]

Klystron,

Just saying...as a multiple repeat offender buying planes.  You need to do a side by side comparison with that other Mooney. Its listed at $80k, so don't be surprised if you could get it for $72-75 and it may be a way better deal?

Just looking at the controls and avionics of N241RC - its had a lot of heat and moisture to end up like that.  Don't be surprised if you have corrosion issues.  Lost logbooks make it hard to sell, even with a discount.  Paint?  Engine and propeller times?

Generally, and a must say I'm generalizing, you can buy plane A.) for $60k, and easily spend $20k on abnormal maintenance items in the first 5 years.  And it might still be worth $60k.  Or you can buy plane B.) for $80k, and have $5k of abnormal maintenance, or buy plane C.) for $100k and have no abnormal maintenance.  

I would look at your exit strategy - is this a buy and hold for 10 years?  What will it look like in 10 years?  Need a paint job in between?  Engine overhaul, avionics upgrade etc?  Almost always you are better off stretching you budget, getting finance and buying something really nice.  Then you use it for 10 years, look after it and still have something good to sell.

Alternatively (and I have done this), buy a plane that is fundamentally good and needs paint, interior, engine, etc. and budget accordingly.  They are out there, but it is hard to find one that is priced accordingly, and even harder to find one that is fundamentally sound.  I have done far better buying planes that have excellent original paint and interior.  The 1980 C172 I had is still at the local airport and has good original paint and interior.  That's 36 years old, and will still be good in 5 years time.  The visible inside condition is a reflection of what you will see when you open up any inspection panel.

And finally, if going from $60k to $80k is beyond your means, perhaps neither is the plane for you.  A single engine retractible plane with a lot of avionics can eat money like there is no tomorrow.  Heck, even good C172's can end up with $5k annual inspection costs.  A carb overhaul is $1k, starter $500, alternator, magnetos, gear pucks, tank reseal etc.  A seller will have deferred all these items (consciously or subconsciously), and it takes a while for things to settle down for a buyer.

Regards,

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

[klystron]

Just now, Aerodon said:

Klystron,

Just saying...as a multiple repeat offender buying planes.  You need to do a side by side comparison with that other Mooney. Its listed at $80k, so don't be surprised if you could get it for $72-75 and it may be a way better deal?

Just looking at the controls and avionics of N241RC - its had a lot of heat and moisture to end up like that.  Don't be surprised if you have corrosion issues.  Lost logbooks make it hard to sell, even with a discount.  Paint?  Engine and propeller times?

Generally, and a must say I'm generalizing, you can buy plane A.) for $60k, and easily spend $20k on abnormal maintenance items in the first 5 years.  And it might still be worth $60k.  Or you can buy plane B.) for $80k, and have $5k of abnormal maintenance, or buy plane C.) for $100k and have no abnormal maintenance.  

I would look at your exit strategy - is this a buy and hold for 10 years?  What will it look like in 10 years?  Need a paint job in between?  Engine overhaul, avionics upgrade etc?  Almost always you are better off stretching you budget, getting finance and buying something really nice.  Then you use it for 10 years, look after it and still have something good to sell.

Alternatively (and I have done this), buy a plane that is fundamentally good and needs paint, interior, engine, etc. and budget accordingly.  They are out there, but it is hard to find one that is priced accordingly, and even harder to find one that is fundamentally sound.  I have done far better buying planes that have excellent original paint and interior.  The 1980 C172 I had is still at the local airport and has good original paint and interior.  That's 36 years old, and will still be good in 5 years time.  The visible inside condition is a reflection of what you will see when you open up any inspection panel.

And finally, if going from $60k to $80k is beyond your means, perhaps neither is the plane for you.  A single engine retractible plane with a lot of avionics can eat money like there is no tomorrow.  Heck, even good C172's can end up with $5k annual inspection costs.  A carb overhaul is $1k, starter $500, alternator, magnetos, gear pucks, tank reseal etc.  A seller will have deferred all these items (consciously or subconsciously), and it takes a while for things to settle down for a buyer.

Regards,

 

Aerodon

Thanks, yeah that is my concern. My absolute top right now is $60k, but that number goes up by about $2k-$3k every month. My goal ideally is to get an aircraft that I can use for 10+ years. So if I get what you're saying I should look for an airplane that has a good exterior and maybe crappy avionics? I know I probably can't afford both at the moment and I would rather have a solid airframe that I can upgrade vs one I have to patch in $1000 bills. 

[flight2000]

If you want to go up in price a little, most of the big ticket items are already done...I just can't make the cabin bigger which is what I need right now...just sayin.... 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19236-fs-1967-m20e-asking-69000/

Never had it over in the western/eastern Rockies, but have been up to 14.5 over the Sierra Nevada range and mine's done well.  Little slow in the climb at full gross with up/down drafts on a hot day, but still managed to maintain a 500 FPM climb. 

Cheers,

Brian

[klystron]

Just now, flight2000 said:

If you want to go up in price a little, most of the big ticket items are already done...I just can't make the cabin bigger which is what I need right now...just sayin.... 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19236-fs-1967-m20e-asking-69000/

Never had it over in the western/eastern Rockies, but have been up to 14.5 over the Sierra Nevada range and mine's done well.  Little slow in the climb at full gross with up/down drafts on a hot day, but still managed to maintain a 500 FPM climb. 

Cheers,

Brian

That's a beautiful aircraft you have there Brian. Unfortunately I'm hard capped at $60k. I've got $20k in the bank and am planning on financing up to $40k. (I'm a 26yr old kid and don't have a ton of cash lying around). Silly banks won't count the nearly $30k a year in rental income I get since it only shows up on last years tax statements.  Soooo, if you are willing to negotiate on that price a bit... 

- Josh

[flight2000]

There's some wiggle room, but if I know what's good for my long term health/happiness, I need to stay pretty close to that price...   

Cheers,

Brian

 

[Pictreed]

2 hours ago, flight2000 said:

If you want to go up in price a little, most of the big ticket items are already done...I just can't make the cabin bigger which is what I need right now...just sayin.... 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/19236-fs-1967-m20e-asking-69000/

Never had it over in the western/eastern Rockies, but have been up to 14.5 over the Sierra Nevada range and mine's done well.  Little slow in the climb at full gross with up/down drafts on a hot day, but still managed to maintain a 500 FPM climb. 

Cheers,

Brian

Holy cow that is a good plane.  All the mods keep the 201 blues in check too. 

[klystron]

2 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Good to see the yung uns getting into airplane ownership, well done.  

I have a very well paying job, my all my housing costs are payed for by my renters and I don't have a girlfriend or significant other (and am unlikely to find one soon) so I might as well spend my money on something! Plus I think the best pick up line ever is "Want to go flying?" 

I do have some pesky student loans but no one ever had fun sinking all their money into paying off those...

[flyboy0681]

4 hours ago, Aerodon said:

And finally, if going from $60k to $80k is beyond your means, perhaps neither is the plane for you.  A single engine retractible plane with a lot of avionics can eat money like there is no tomorrow.  Heck, even good C172's can end up with $5k annual inspection costs.  A carb overhaul is $1k, starter $500, alternator, magnetos, gear pucks, tank reseal etc.  A seller will have deferred all these items (consciously or subconsciously), and it takes a while for things to settle down for a buyer.

I think this is the most important point of aircraft ownership. I consider getting "in" the cheap part, maintenance is the big bank account drain. If you don't have the temperament, I suggest staying far way and stick with renting, in which case you will probably always come out ahead, even if paying $175/hr for a nice plane. 

I've enjoyed every moment of the plane, but sometimes I've asked myself what I've gotten in to when I add up all of the numbers.

[flight2000]

Just now, flyboy0681 said:

.....when I add up all of the numbers.

Now why would you go and do something silly like that... 

I have a rough idea, but I really don't want to know what's been put into Mo over the last 7 years...

Cheers,

Brian

[flyboy0681]

Just now, flight2000 said:

Now why would you go and do something silly like that... 

I have a rough idea, but I really don't want to know what's been put into Mo over the last 7 years...

Cheers,

Brian

I meant when I add them up in my head. New starter, $400, new battery $300, new new radio master switch, $300...

I keep a spreadsheet of all expenses but don't have a cell defined containing the total. Not having one keeps me in the air.  

[LANCECASPER]

No matter what you do, when you find an airplane you're ready to pull the trigger on, get a pre-buy done on it by someone who knows Mooneys well. It is the only logical part of the airplane buying decision . . . especially if you are financing part of it.

[Danb]

Don't ever add up the numbers 

[carusoam]

Professional advice.  ^^^^ 

 

-a-

[klystron]

1 minute ago, Danb said:

Don't ever add up the numbers 

On Denali, while bored at 14 camp, my climbing buddy and I started adding up the cost of all our gear that was just sitting there out in the open. Once we hit about $10k each we decided that we should stop and never think about it again. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, klystron said:

On Denali, while bored at 14 camp, my climbing buddy and I started adding up the cost of all our gear that was just sitting there out in the open. Once we hit about $10k each we decided that we should stop and never think about it again. 

I see you've been well trained to be an airplane owner!   We're all allergic to addition, even the Math professor with his Mooney Rocket. . .

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 

Manual costs, no back spring costs blah blah you just don't add up. Aeroplanes are like classic cars, we have to pay to enjoy them. 

With age comes wisdom. . 

Www.oldguysruleuk.co.uk. . 

Uh oh, I've got a double whammy . . . Old English car, older American airplane . . . The car has already cost me more in maint/repairs this year . . . At least they are both fun!

[MyNameIsNobody]

16 hours ago, Pictreed said:

Holy cow that is a good plane.  All the mods keep the 201 blues in check too. 

I will raise your good and call her superb.

[klystron]

9 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

The real "cost of ownership" v "rental" is this....

I can get in my plane, fly 40 mins to my favourite French Hotel on a Friday evening.  Spend the whole weekend there and fly back on Sunday.  All of this for the cost of 1:20 flying time.  If you try to do that by renting the shop will want at least 2 hours a day minimum out of you, which makes such trips prohibitive.  Being able to do short hops to fab places for long periods, like in a car, are what ownership gives you  

Manual costs, no back spring costs blah blah you just don't add up. Aeroplanes are like classic cars, we have to pay to enjoy them. 

As a 26 yr old, let this old guy give you some of his wisdom. Yes buy a plane and then get some other people (2-3) to buy shares in her.  Have a good share agreement (see threads on this on here and AOPA). This will reduce your maint costs and still allow you all the benefits of ownership. Make sure you have a compulsory buy back clause on the shares so if you get a guy buy in who is a pain in the a, you can kick him out without further ado. 

With age comes wisdom. . 

Www.oldguysruleuk.co.uk. . 

This 100%. The nearest place for me to rent is Santa Fe, which is a 45 minute drive. Once there the only places that rent are two flight schools, one has a Remos-GX, a Tecnam Sierra, and a 182P, the other has 3x 172s. I have taken the Remos-GX from KSAF to KHYI and back over a weekend but I had to convince the owner to move people around in the schedule and we ended up leaving a day later than we would have liked.  The problem is that because they are flight schools it is very hard to get them over the weekends, when I really want them. I have a 3-day weekend every other week so I'd love to be able to go fly somewhere on those weekends. I would also love to be able to take extended lunch breaks and go grab a $100 hamburger up in Pagosa Springs or Taos. 

 

I'd like to get into a partnership but those opportunities are limited in a town of 12,000 people. There is a flying club, but they currently have 8 people bought into a single Cardinal so once again it comes down to scheduling. I might get a buddy of mine to buy into my aircraft (once I have one) when he finally gets converted to full staff here at the lab. Of course I won't try to do that until after he solos 

[flyboy0681]

Just now, klystron said:

This 100%. The nearest place for me to rent is Santa Fe, which is a 45 minute drive. Once there the only places that rent are two flight schools, one has a Remos-GX, a Tecnam Sierra, and a 182P, the other has 3x 172s. I have taken the Remos-GX from KSAF to KHYI and back over a weekend but I had to convince the owner to move people around in the schedule and we ended up leaving a day later than we would have liked.  The problem is that because they are flight schools it is very hard to get them over the weekends, when I really want them. I have a 3-day weekend every other week so I'd love to be able to go fly somewhere on those weekends. I would also love to be able to take extended lunch breaks and go grab a $100 hamburger up in Pagosa Springs or Taos. 

 

I'd like to get into a partnership but those opportunities are limited in a town of 12,000 people. There is a flying club, but they currently have 8 people bought into a single Cardinal so once again it comes down to scheduling. I might get a buddy of mine to buy into my aircraft (once I have one) when he finally gets converted to full staff here at the lab. Of course I won't try to do that until after he solos 

What you guys have said came through loud and clear. This is why we as owners elect to shell out an extra $5-10k per year over renting, for the freedom that ownership affords us.

[bonal]

Don't stress it, you have the budget for a really good C or E both can work in the high elevations you just have to fly smart as for speed they do just fine, maybe not rocket fast but in real world numbers will get you there WAY faster than any drive. As long as you do a good pre buy your maintenance should be very reasonable and should not need a partner which can be good or bad depending on the other person/s as a three seat the short bodies do fine as well

[211º]

Not for nothing, don't discount the flying club with a cardinal and eight people.

My guess is that a few of the people (five?) fly maybe once per month or once per 90 days. If that is the case, you're a quasi quarter-share owner.

Then again, you really won't learn everything about ownership until you are the sole owner.

Suffice it to say that I have used up three paragraphs, but only given you more to think about, not solved the conundrum.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[thinwing]

Hey ,I am curious about your avatar/ user name.Isnt that the high speed switch that triggered the HE segments surrounding the plutonium sphere in a nuke?PS flew into Los Alamos a couple summers ago...my advice...get a turbo..k

[klystron]

22 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Hey ,I am curious about your avatar/ user name.Isnt that the high speed switch that triggered the HE segments surrounding the plutonium sphere in a nuke?PS flew into Los Alamos a couple summers ago...my advice...get a turbo..k

A klystron is a really big RF source. We used them on the tokamak back at school to heat plasma to temperatures hotter than the center of the sun.

 

I'd love to get a K if I could afford it. One of my coworkers is considering getting one but I think he is looking beyond my price range.

[klystron]

Also, does anyone happen to know of an instructor with vintage M20 experience and a place where one can be rented in the Newport News / Norfolk Virginia area? I need to get my dad checked out so that *when* the time comes I can have him go with me to pick up an aircraft and finish my PPL training in it.He's an ATP, CFII, etc. Lots of time in pipers, cessna's B1-B's, and Boeing's, no mooney time though.