The Mooney 305 Rocket Conversion for Commuting?

[jkhirsch]

So you're telling me that he physically cannot buy a FIKI Mooney and do his training in it up through his IFR ticket?

Again you manage to presuppose your own beliefs into the situation. My soup is too hot, but it's not hot enough for you. Present some objective information then your post is worthwhile. Don't tell me "piston singles" have to cancel many flights in the NE during wintry soup without presenting some data to support your position.

He can read, again my assumption is that people are capable of taking information and forming their own opinion. Also hmm, interestingly enough I seem to recall that part of pilot training is teaching you how to think. What a concept......

Do you really think he and his instructor won't be discussing the limitations of SEL FIKI during his training?

Again before any of that is relevant is the financial situation.

Someone who posts, 'aww man, you could never do that,' is wasting everyone's time.

Someone who posts, 'you are looking at a challenging but possible situation that's going to require compromises and flexibility."

Unless you're signing his logbook he doesn't need your advice on how to fly, or what you think is possible or safe for him.

You can argue with me all day but you are simply wrong and already trying to derail the actual point of what I said, because I'm not arguing about whether his situation is "practical" or not, I'm pointing out the flaws in the information provided--that it is unsubstantiated by actual data.

I'm simply pointing out that it never fails to shock me when people post their opinions without any relevant facts. Which in and of itself is an interesting discussion, why do people like to force their own unsubstantiated opinions on others? Are people not secure enough in their own existence that they want to think everyone experiences the world exactly how they do?

Edited July 13, 2016 by jkhirsch

[Guest Mike261]

On 7/12/2016 at 3:26 PM, Samurai Husky said:

As that famously quoted person that started on the same tack as you did, This is what i have learned in my 3 months of GA and being on this forums. 

1. Get your PPL before you start looking at planes. You might be more than 6 months out before you even get your license. So why look now, you will just go nuts; You will be amazed on how many lessons are cancelled because of weather or rental maintenance or any number of factors. There was someone else on this forums that bought a plane and sat on it for a year before he could fly it.

2. As others have said, the Rocket is a great concept, but really you might as well look at a SR22G2 for about the same price. The difference is you will get FIKI, a parachute, same UL, and TAS of about 165knts at 15-16/gh. On the top end you can see 180's at full power and 23/gh You can use its little brother the SR20 as a trainer like I did. While i dont out right recommend learning in a SR20 as it will take considerably more time to learn in, it is doable and the cross training from a SR20 to a SR22 once done is like 2-3 hours.

3. Weather is no Joke. Landing with cross wind is very challenging for a new pilot, even now i have a 7kt XWC personal min on my 70ft wide runway. Also the bay area has a nasty marine layer that moves in and can sit around for weeks. Meaning with out IFR you might not be able to land here until past Noon when it burns off. There have been many accidents in the Livermore pass because people try to duck under the marine layer to land at Palo alto; Those hills are anywhere between 1000ft and 2800ft. If you have to be 500ft below the clouds and 1000ft above 'populated area' it means you need at least 1500ft of clearance, which means you are cutting grass if you are off.

Overall the Rocket is very interesting, purchase price is good, the performance is great, the running costs are pretty low, But I personally ruled it out after a lot of debating. I just didn't want to give up the UL and distance to gain an extra 20mins. Really 20 mins in the air is nothing like 20mins on the ground. I will take the extra 20mins in the air any day! Then tack on the number of hours needed to be safe and I just kinda gave up; You really dont understand the difference in 50knts until you experience it and then hit turbulence.

4. You can always move up later. Focus on getting something you can handle then worry about getting something else.  Landing a plane is hard; Landing a complex plane is harder. 

Personally right now Im looking for a J 82' and up or a SR22 NA. but until i am PPL its just looking.

 

Sam has come a long way...good on you.

[jkhirsch]

Andrew, you are an even worse offender:

"500+ hours"...that's a completely arbitrary number, I would like to think that some of you people were joking sometimes.

Well thought out writing typically doesn't come in a brief form; effective written communication is complex and can be difficult.

If you have a "magical" answer for why "500+ hours" will get him close please delineate, if not stop wasting everyone's time with your unsupported declarative posts.

[gsengle]

Dude chill out. Suffice it to say a piston single is very limiting for that commute and there is probably a consensus that someone that doesn't even have his private yet is in zero position to understand the risks. Moreover most wouldn't want to do challenging cross country weather flying including ice in a high performance plane in the mountains without some number of hundreds of hours and an instrument rating. 500? 400? 600? Whatever. I have way more and my FIKI ovation probably wouldn't achieve an acceptable dispatch rate with me as a pilot.

This isn't about facts it's about polling us for judgement. That's our judgement. Does he have spouse? Kids? That's what makes me determined not to end up an accident discussion on Mooneyspace.

Sent from my iPhone

[geoffb]

12 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

.

I'm simply pointing out that it never fails to shock me when people post their opinions without any relevant facts. Which in and of itself is an interesting discussion, why do people like to force their own unsubstantiated opinions on others? Are people not secure enough in their own existence that they want to think everyone experiences the world exactly how they do?

The OP, who is not currently a pilot, asked if buying a Rocket to use as a commuter from EUG to the somewhere in the Bay Area was a practical solution.  The responses from people in this area, experienced with that route of flight, was that he shouldn't bet on making that trip reliably all year in that airplane.  I don't see anything in the responses to his question that hinged around his checking account balance with the exception of the observation made that if he needs better dispatch reliability, and can afford it, he might want to look at a turboprop lease.

Observations that weather and particularly icing is a serious issue for piston engine planes on that route of flight from people who have made and know the route may be unsubstantiated, but the OP can feel free to start studying the prog charts, pireps and Skew-T data to educate himself on the matter.

And he posted here looking for opinions

[jkhirsch]

What makes your judgement worthwhile if you have no data to support your position? Your "gut?" That's so sickening it's not even laughable.

He blatantly asked for commentary, maybe to him bemoaning drivel is useful, but if he happens to like actual data or that option to form his own opinion based on fact you are still wasting his time unless you share facts.

An opinion based on an opinion is useless. Look around that's most of our society apparently.

[gsengle]

OK here's a topic that the original poster is probably in no position with his lack of experience to evaluate. I personally will not fly over areas of widespread low IFR in a single simply because I will have no ability to choose a landing spot upon engine failure when I break out. This severely lowers dispatch. If you have different rules well then your mileage will vary. However I have small children and I have a spouse. I am not going to break this rule. That's before we even start talking about good judgment generally for the low time pilot or the whole icing issue in that particular geography or the mountains etc. etc.

OP should listen to this one...

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/bonanza-5626d-crash-plainville-ma-2015-06-28/

Or how about the fact that things break on little airplanes and we don't have tremendous redundancy. And that if the alternator isn't charging when you roll out you're not going that day.

I'm guessing a good number of people who have the kinds of high-powered jobs that would allow them to do this sort of commuting and afford a FIKI Mooney also often times have meetings they just can't miss. Which then clouds your judgment about whether you should go or not when things aren't looking so great. Because I think get there -itis is probably something that kills pilots. Therefore I wouldn't put myself in that situation generally speaking without a back up.

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[jkhirsch]

I don't like nay-saying. Especially when it's not even coupled to actual piece of data that someone can assimilate into their own cognizance.

[gsengle]

I have no use for language like sickening, drivel, laughable, bemoaning. Expect better from our community. Civil discussion.

I provided some useful facts. As well as judgement. He came here because I assume he values this community's judgement in some way, because many of us have been there and done that, and your posts crying opinion opinion! aren't very helpful...

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[gsengle]

Or again as I said in my first post we all could've saved our time by going back and reading the entire samurai husky anthology...

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[N9453V]

44 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

Andrew, you are an even worse offender:

"500+ hours"...that's a completely arbitrary number, I would like to think that some of you people were joking sometimes.

Well thought out writing typically doesn't come in a brief form; effective written communication is complex and can be difficult.

If you have a "magical" answer for why "500+ hours" will get him close please delineate, if not stop wasting everyone's time with your unsupported declarative posts.

jkhirsch, both the FAA and insurance companies use 500 hours and an instrument rating as a level of competence where the risk goes down substantially (see 91.146). The reality is there is no substitute for experience.

My experience is as a 1500 hour commercial pilot who has operated piston and turbine aircraft in all weather from south of Miami to the west coast of Alaska and through most of Canada. I've flown hundreds of hours along the very route the op is posting about commuting year round. While many pilots on this forum have more experience than me, I believe my experience is both relevant and sufficient to provide my opinion as to the viability of the op's plan.

Since you feel we are all wrong, I'd appreciate if you'd post your experience and qualifications to make that assessment.

-Andrew

Edited July 13, 2016 by N9453V

[Seth]

On July 12, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Samurai Husky said:

As that famously quoted person that started on the same tack as you did, This is what i have learned in my 3 months of GA and being on this forums. 

1. Get your PPL before you start looking at planes. You might be more than 6 months out before you even get your license. So why look now, you will just go nuts; You will be amazed on how many lessons are cancelled because of weather or rental maintenance or any number of factors. There was someone else on this forums that bought a plane and sat on it for a year before he could fly it.

2. As others have said, the Rocket is a great concept, but really you might as well look at a SR22G2 for about the same price. The difference is you will get FIKI, a parachute, same UL, and TAS of about 165knts at 15-16/gh. On the top end you can see 180's at full power and 23/gh You can use its little brother the SR20 as a trainer like I did. While i dont out right recommend learning in a SR20 as it will take considerably more time to learn in, it is doable and the cross training from a SR20 to a SR22 once done is like 2-3 hours.

3. Weather is no Joke. Landing with cross wind is very challenging for a new pilot, even now i have a 7kt XWC personal min on my 70ft wide runway. Also the bay area has a nasty marine layer that moves in and can sit around for weeks. Meaning with out IFR you might not be able to land here until past Noon when it burns off. There have been many accidents in the Livermore pass because people try to duck under the marine layer to land at Palo alto; Those hills are anywhere between 1000ft and 2800ft. If you have to be 500ft below the clouds and 1000ft above 'populated area' it means you need at least 1500ft of clearance, which means you are cutting grass if you are off.

Overall the Rocket is very interesting, purchase price is good, the performance is great, the running costs are pretty low, But I personally ruled it out after a lot of debating. I just didn't want to give up the UL and distance to gain an extra 20mins. Really 20 mins in the air is nothing like 20mins on the ground. I will take the extra 20mins in the air any day! Then tack on the number of hours needed to be safe and I just kinda gave up; You really dont understand the difference in 50knts until you experience it and then hit turbulence.

4. You can always move up later. Focus on getting something you can handle then worry about getting something else.  Landing a plane is hard; Landing a complex plane is harder. 

Personally right now Im looking for a J 82' and up or a SR22 NA. but until i am PPL its just looking.

 

I'm proud of how much information you've internalized Samurai. Good thought process.  You've come a long way and looking forward to hearing the rest of your development over the next few years.

Steve-

There's lots of good info here.  I agree. 20 minutes difference doesn't mean a lot.  However, I now fly the Mooney Missile (180+ knots - non turbo Rocket Conversion) and the last time I flew an Stock M20J my 2 hour flight turned into 2.5.  It wasn't an issue at all, but I did notice it!  

If anything happens to me, my instructions to my family are to sell my Mooney Missile.  Not to learn to fly it.  It is not a rookie aircraft an neither is the Rocket.

Learn in rentals.  Then get a good first airplane, could be a Mooney at that point, even a higher performance Mooney with the right mindset, mentor pilot, and training.

Good luck and welcome to aviation!

-Seth

 

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

Thanks, I have taken this whole process very seriously. Some things you just need to experience before you fully comprehend the gravity of a statement. Landing in 24knt crosswinds with wind 18g30 on a runway thats 75ft wide will change your thought process on a lot of things.  

Like me, this gentleman doesn't know what he is getting into yet because he hasnt started down the path. Right now he is just getting information about the path; So some people in here I think can be a little harsh seeing that his mind can change between now and PPL.

I started out wanting a twin which today i think is even more crazy than a rocket. So let him do his research, let him start lessons, and let him learn what it is to be a pilot. Chances are he too will come to a conclusion that there is more involved than just raw speed. There is a long road ahead, so nothing is written in stone.

[Yooper Rocketman]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

As I understand it, the FIKI version requires two alternators for backup power, and it comes with two pumps.  Two alternators were not available on the 231 so FIKI is only available on the 252, but having a 252 does not guarantee that it will have been the two pump fiki version.  But also, as I understand it, it is the entire installation, engine combo that is in the paper work that makes it a fiki system.  The paper work is everything when callung a system fiki and excercising the rights that go with that.  So as I understand it, even if you had a fiki install of the tks in your 252, but then got the rocket stc after that, it will no longer be a fiki system even though you have two pumps.  In part because now you do not have two alternators.  But even if you get a second backup alternator (doesnt gami make some kind of second alternator that would fit the accessories port on the tsio520nb?) it still would not be fiki anymore since the engine and the alternators would not be as specified in the cav-aero fiki tks paperwork.  So the fiki privledge  is nul and void in a rocket if you had it in the first place.

I already went through this drill with a Bonanza.  If the FIKI system is on before other mods, and no substantial changes are made to the required components (still has two pumps and a standby alternator), the STC holder for the newest STC is responsible to determine if THEIR STC substantially changes the prior one for the FIKI Deice system.  We could NOT have the Tornado Alley engine upgrade with the turbo installed first, and then get CAV to install the FIKI TKS system.  For the record, if the windshield had been modified to a thicker windshield, it would disqualify the FIKI option.  CAV wants a totally stock airplane, even if the mod has no relevance to the TKS install.

We COULD get the FIKI TKS system installed first and then have the Tornado Alley upgrade after and still have FIKI (which is exactly what we did).  So........there can be Rocket conversions out there, of 252 airframes, that are certified for FIKI.  The key is the model 252 was the oldest Mooney airframe that CAV certified for FIKI.  Although the 231 is a "K" model, it is considered for FIKI certification a different "model" than the 252 in CAV's eyes, and can't get FIKI.  This same issue, to an even more extreme point, is present in the Bonanzas.  The break is within the model of the BE36, determined by year of manufacture (1985) only.  Identical airframes, 1984 and 1985 are the break point for FIKI.  We sold a perfectly good 1982 and bought a much rattier 1985 just so we could get a platform for FIKI TKS on our airlifeline plane.

And yes, I know this is not that relative to the OP's question, but I think it's important to understand the qualifying FIKI factors for our Mooney's (and Bonanza's).

Tom

(Who just installed my fourth TKS system, this time on a Lancair Prop-jet).

[aviatoreb]

53 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I already went through this drill with a Bonanza.  If the FIKI system is on before other mods, and no substantial changes are made to the required components (still has two pumps and a standby alternator), the STC holder for the newest STC is responsible to determine if THEIR STC substantially changes the prior one for the FIKI Deice system.  We could NOT have the Tornado Alley engine upgrade with the turbo installed first, and then get CAV to install the FIKI TKS system.  For the record, if the windshield had been modified to a thicker windshield, it would disqualify the FIKI option.  CAV wants a totally stock airplane, even if the mod has no relevance to the TKS install.

We COULD get the FIKI TKS system installed first and then have the Tornado Alley upgrade after and still have FIKI (which is exactly what we did).  So........there can be Rocket conversions out there, of 252 airframes, that are certified for FIKI.  The key is the model 252 was the oldest Mooney airframe that CAV certified for FIKI.  Although the 231 is a "K" model, it is considered for FIKI certification a different "model" than the 252 in CAV's eyes, and can't get FIKI.  This same issue, to an even more extreme point, is present in the Bonanzas.  The break is within the model of the BE36, determined by year of manufacture (1985) only.  Identical airframes, 1984 and 1985 are the break point for FIKI.  We sold a perfectly good 1982 and bought a much rattier 1985 just so we could get a platform for FIKI TKS on our airlifeline plane.

And yes, I know this is not that relative to the OP's question, but I think it's important to understand the qualifying FIKI factors for our Mooney's (and Bonanza's).

Tom

(Who just installed my fourth TKS system, this time on a Lancair Prop-jet).

This makes sense in a "FAA-logic" kind of way.

[Jerry 5TJ]

It's all about money and mission:. In the mid-1990s I did have a colleague who bought a new TBM700 and he learned to fly in it.  That worked out fine, he flew it for several years & upgraded to a Citation.  He had places to go and cash to use getting there.  

Sure, if you have motivation and a modicum of ability you can buy a Rocket and learn to fly it OR to CA.  Most of us found it appropriate to fly basic rentals & then upgrade, but that's not required.  

Best luck.  

PS. I have a well-equipped FIKI Ovatiom.  TKS & all the Garmin gear is nice, but not a panacea.  Just today I cancelled a trip of under 200 miles because I didn't like the thunderstorms seen on the XM or the strikes on the WX500.    Tomorrow is soon enough.  

[Bravoman]

 I know that thread drift is inevitable, particularly with a long thread. But having flown now for just about 30 years, and having close to  2000 hours under my belt, it surprises me that people are having a serious discussion about a rocket or a fiki capable aircraft as an appropriate first plane for a guy that doesn't even have his ticket. I can only speak for myself, and I know I am not the best pilot in the world, but even with experience that I have  I can say that  my plane demands my full attention, and I can't imagine it is too much different than a  rocket.  I guess my point is that I do not think that this kind of dialogue does him any favors. 

[gsengle]

Most are having a serious discussion recommending against though

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[carusoam]

For JKH...

where are you going? 

It doesn't seem to be impossible as much as less likely that anyone would go from zero hours to Rocket.  One guy in the papers learned to fly in a Citation Jet.  Thurmond Munson if you remember or want to look it up.

1) How long does it take for an ordinary person to gain the knowledge and experience to safely fly a FIKI Rocket as a personal commuter?

2) If we rely on first hand experience only.  How many MSers have FIKI and Rocket experience?

3) What would be the logical steps.

- PPL

- IR

- Experience in flying in the weather and in the location described.

- Ownership experience, maintenance, GPS subscriptions, O2 systems, FIKI stuff.

4)  We have some MS friends that have left an indelible mark on this site.  Two of them early in their flying careers.  One of them flew a Rocket.

5) Money is always an issue.  One route may cost less than another.  Even a guy with plenty of dough is going to weigh his options...

6) Everybody is going to have their own opinion.  Some may be less clear than others.  Some people may have more talent for learning to fly.

7) I was hoping to have a positive first post in this thread.  I looked at it as if it were me.  Could I have done it?  Or Would I have done it?  Or how would I have done it?  I can only rely on my own experience to give my opinion.  I have faded memory and what's available in the search box here.  Still no hard facts...

8) Few people learn to fly in a Mooney.  Most people recommend the trainer route.  Then decide what airplane to buy. Then some people will tell you how long it took to find and purchase the right Mooney.

9) Of all the Rocket pilots we have, how many are ordinary people?  

- These are the people we want on our team.

10) Maybe our OP is really bright, hard working, has plenty of resources for training, for picking up experience, and buying a Rocket.

11) Time is the most important resource. Support is probably next.

12) It took me two years to get my PPL.  It fit into other major life steps that were appropriate for me.

13) How long does it take to find three other people with this level of experience that want to fly the same route?

14) Splitting a Rocket four ways financially isn't incredibly challenging from a financial burden point of view.  Interest rates are incredibly low.

Never mind, I can't come up with any facts to support my opinion.

Can we carry a conversation if we only cite facts?

Try to go easy on me in your response.  

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

Anthony we're not in college any more with the need to support our conclusion's with multiple points of fact,who cares, we are a bunch of guys who like our hobby/job flying, want to rap with others in the same boat.  

Can you see this dude in a bar with people half smashed, someone goes off on them wanting to critique there conclusions with a ramble of you don't know the facts you moron,support your position or just shut up! Around Philly the poor guy would live in the accident ward in the local hospitals. Can't we just get alone. I was not going to respond to this thread, like an idiot I did. There trying to stop cyber bullying in school we should set an example of mature adults stop our own cyber bullying. 

[jkhirsch]

There's always "more than one way to skin a cat" and even though you think your way may be the best, someone else will disagree. There, positing your "one way to skin a cat" as the only way to skin a cat is incorrect and a disservice to the original poster. Positing your "one way to skin a cat" as "this is one way to skin a cat, but there are other ways" would be correct and a service to the original poster.

Andrew: Yeah let's get our dicks out and swing them around, that's going to accomplish a lot.

I never said anyone was wrong, but many statements have been made with implicit assumptions that someone new to aviation may not have any context to interpret.

Andrew: Look at you! There was data behind your 500 hours remark all along.....how amazing. You think a guy new to flying has any clue about FARs or does that seem in your original post that you were pulling it from you know where? Implicit assumptions.  Enough snarkiness.

My point is and has been that in your original post you could have made that reference.

I advocate that many, many people here do have a lot of good data, they just for some reason don't share it with someone who is trying to form an opinion about something that they have limited exposure to.

I'd also be rich in Philly for a small little thing called tortious behavior. Talk about college...we aren't in a bar, nor your old frat house, don't you know the internet is for grown-ups.....

I got my pilot's license in 6 weeks time and have several hundred hours since. If I could have afforded it at the time I would have bought a Mooney or a Debonair and done my training in it. Unfortunately that wasn't the case for me, but I personally think it makes more sense to buy and train in what you plan to fly, if you can afford to do that. Training does not have to be mutually exclusive, he could gain experience in the plane he plans to fly, along the route he plans to fly, all the while developing his minimums and confidence or lack thereof in his abilities during training.

Thanks for your post Jerry both of your anecdotes are relevant, your cancellation highlights varying levels of personal comfort that the original poster would develop through his intimate relationship with his flight instructor.

Anthony: I could [go back and] write what my response to the first post would be if it provides anymore context, but am assuming where I stand is vaguely clear through what I have said. I just don't like people with little experience in a subject or field not being allowed to make their own determinations and being lead to biases held by people already familiar. I have zero negative things to send your direction, I have no idea how you have the time and the patience to do all of your summary posts, but I generally find them to be valuable if not necessary, many times for the exact reasons that I have brought up here. So whether you agree with my language there is some part of you that philosophically agrees with the argument I have made here, otherwise you would not contribute all of your summary posts.

[Samurai Husky]

I think we have effectively scared the OP away; He hasn't posted since page 1.

[gsengle]

Better that than he ends up a fatality. Flying is a serious business, and no one should be naive of the risks.

Stick and rudder and navigation and radio is just table stakes. Professional pilots take a risk management approach to what they do. They understand every risk and they mitigate every one. They try not to roll the dice. If you're dissuaded by a bunch of nay sayers, before learning how to figure it out for yourself, then it isn't for you. If you listen to the nay sayers and conclude for yourself that the risk is unacceptable, good, they helped open your eyes and transmit valuable experience. And finally if you listen to it all, evaluate and mitigate every risk to your personal satisfaction with eyes open, then go for it, you're a pilot. Husky sure hung in there!

But no one should apologize for raising risks when advice is asked for. You're PIC.

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[aviatoreb]

Let us all remember our late friend Houman formerly from Montreal.  I knew Houman personally.  He was a very low hours pilot flying a rocket, and without an instrument rating.  His fatal crash was in Canada so there will be no ntsb report analyzing the factors, but it seems as if in rough terms, that the airplane was still just too much of a handful for him as a very low time pilot, too early in his flying career.  Not saying what anyone else should do, but I am remembering Houman who loved his rocket.

[Samurai Husky]

I tend to agree, but at the same time he hasn't even started flying yet. He was just looking for information and at one point said he was willing to let someone else fly the plane for commuting purposes within the partnership. So this wasn't a normal post where someone comes in looking to buy a plane and go solo. He was buying it in conjunction with a group of people with the sole purpose of commuting; Not really for travel etc. etc. 

So while we are right to warn him that as a solo low time pilot its a bad idea for him to fly, it may not necessarily be a bad idea if it was a group of people with one of those people acting as the PIC who has the experience and certificates. 

Now the possibility of finding someone that has a pilots license, lives in Eugene and needs to commute to the bay area on the same days as he does is not very likely, but that's on him to figure out, not us.