Hi Everyone! Warning: New Guy Here, First Post

[Flyingbeard]

Hi Everyone!

I have been reading and hopeing to learn from the collective wisdom of MooneySpace. I have been searching Trade-A-plane, The Controller, Barnstormers and even E-Bay for my first airplane. It seems like a M20F or J would fit my needs. I am also considering a late 60s or early 70s Beech Bonanza.

 A little about me, I have been flying now for a little over 31 years and work as a pilot for one of the Legacy Airlines. I learned to fly helicopters in the military and later transitioned to fixed wing aircraft. So, I have had very little exposure to General Avaition and have never owned a plane. My biggest fear is buying a plane and having it turn into a money pit. 

I really want a plane that I can be comfortable in IMC, not planning on flying in bad weather, but would want to be able to fly a 200 and half approach if I really needed to. I am comfortable with steam gages and don't really need the latest glass. I learned to fly with TACAN, VOR, ADF & ILS, but a VFR GPS would be a plus. I am also looking for the standard instrument setup.

I live in Maryland, but can travel for the right plane. It seems like Texas and California is where I see the most Mooneys for sale. I have been told that Air Mods Flight and Service in NJ has a good reputation. Any others in the Northeast that I should check out?

Thanks for your time. I will shut up now.

Mark,   ( Flyingbeard)

Also, if anyone is near me, I am 5 mins from Martin State (KMTN) or Essex Skypark (W48), I would love to buy you a coffee and check out your plane.

 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Welcome aboard sir.  You've come to the right place, and you've chosen the right airplane.

[kmyfm20s]

Welcome!

[Brandontwalker]

Welcome sir. Prepare yourself for extremely biased opinions. If looking to learn about Mooneys, you are in the right place. A word of caution on EBay sales, many that I saw in my fairly recent search would not afford an ample pre-buy. I strongly encourage a pre-buy inspection at a MSC. If you cannot get with a MSC, find an AP with Mooney experience.

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[HRM]

46 minutes ago, Flyingbeard said:

I am also considering a late 60s or early 70s Beech Bonanza.

Return after you have had your fill of Bonanzas. None of them are Super.

[Flyingbeard]

Yes Sir! Thanks for the warning, I have adjusted my search and will be dealing with a MSC for a pre-buy inspection. There a few near me in MD, PA and NJ.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Flyingbeard
spelling

[glafaille]

Mark:

I'm in the same boat!  I've been flying for about 40 years, flew helicopters in the Army, got out after 4 yrs and worked my way up the civilian ladder from flight instructing to my current job of flying a Lear 60.  I've been seriously looking for a "C" or "E" model Mooney to visit friends and family on both coasts.  I search Trade-A-Plane, Barnstormers, ASO, Controller, Lasar, Craigslist and Ebay almost daily.  I think I know the current Mooney market better than most.

I have performed detailed logbook examinations on over 15 planes and personally looked at only 3.  None have met my requirements, most fail the logbook check.  You will be surprised at the condition of most Mooney logbooks, horrific is the word that comes to mind.  Looked at one today that was not too bad, the pictures appeared to show the plane to be very nice and well cared for.  Problem; Last overhaul was 42 years ago with only 1200 hours on the engine and priced like the engine was overhauled recently.  Yesterday I talked to a gentleman with an early M20C still running on the original engine, no overhaul performed in 50 years, asking price $40,000 with old radios and an inop PC system.  Most have decades of simple entries documenting annual inspections but very little information on actual maintenance performed, all hand written and difficult to read.  I have seen only one set of logbooks with a easily read list of AD/SB compliance.  I'm spoiled by corporate aircraft record keeping.

My advice is to prioritize your wants, find out the cost to add each to an airplane that is otherwise acceptable.  The most expensive of your wants is likely to be your driving item(s).  Be prepared to compromise, a lot, unless you have a FAT wallet.  

You will have to get your brain around ADS-B as it's only 4 years away and as every single airplane will need to comply, the time to commit is quickly approaching or you will be grounded, only so many avionics shops out there and lots of planes.  

GPS is great but beware the cost of data subscriptions, and bear in mind that parts support for older GPS systems is evaporating.  Seems easier to get parts for an ancient Narco MK12 than an old Garmin, especially if the screen is the part that fails.  Ipads are much cheaper but may not be legal for IFR navigation

Frankly, I think most of the better planes are on the East Coast and California.  For some reason, many Mooney folks think airplane buyers are seasonal, like boat buyers, and resist offering their aircraft for sale until spring.  So the pickings are a bit slim right now.

Seems like most planes are based in the most out of the way hard to get to places or BFE as we used to say in the Army.  I guess that's why the seller has a plane!  To get to civilization!

This website is a great place for information from friendly and helpful folks.  If you want to discuss the airplane hunt "adventure" in detail, send me your phone number via pm and I'll be happy to pass on what I've learned so far, we can compare notes.

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by glafaille

[glafaille]

Mark:

By the way, I too went down the Beechcraft Bonanza road for a while.  I have a soft spot in my heart for Beechcraft products from over 6500 hours of night time flying freight in Barons.

Bottom line is, check out the Spar web carry throught AD/SB on practically all smaller Beech aircraft, inspection required every 500 hours.  Find a crack and your investment decreases in value by up to 1/2.  No real fix as far as I can find.  V tailed aircraft have their own set of problems.  The tails are staying on after Beechcraft fixed them with a leading edge cuff almost 20 years ago but now they are having elevon flutter issues.  Nevermind the famed V tail wiggle.  Straight tails don't wiggle and don't flutter but cost more.

Edited January 5, 2016 by glafaille

[Flyingbeard]

Hi glafaille,

Thanks for your reply. Lear 60, nice! I would love to compare notes. I have recurrent training this week, but will send you a PM so we can set up a time to talk.

Take Care,

Mark

[MyNameIsNobody]

All GA planes are Mooney-pits.  If you are scared that is a good start regarding entering into the world of aircraft ownership.  I have "heard" that Beech thinks very highly of their parts.  

Enter the game with eyes wide open.  There are no "good deals"...until you find the plane that has been loved and flown.  You will then spend a lot of AMU's making it yours.

[Mcstealth]

Welcome to the Forum.

David

 

 

[Guitarmaster]

All GA planes are Mooney-pits.  If you are scared that is a good start regarding entering into the world of aircraft ownership.  I have "heard" that Beech thinks very highly of their parts.  

Enter the game with eyes wide open.  There are no "good deals"...until you find the plane that has been loved and flown.  You will then spend a lot of AMU's making it yours.

What he said ^^^

Welcome!

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[FloridaMan]

$40,000 for a nicely equipped late 60s M20F is a reasonable expectation. I am partial to the 1967 year; they made 1000 of them. You should be able to find one with a GNS430 and a mid-time engine for that. I have a 67 with the manual gear and I highly recommend the model; I paid more, but given the equipment and condition, it was impossible to walk away from it. The manual gear is very low maintenance and may have helped to save my ass due to the transition speed when I had an engine failure at 200ft I was able to get the gear down, land in the field at the end of the runway and walk away without injury to any occupants, airframe, propeller or engine, aside from what caused the failure (unknown FOD in the #4 cylinder destroying both spark plugs on initial climb). The accident survival statistics in Mooneys are exceptional and seem to show that if you keep it flying it to the ground without stalling that you'll survive. 

I believe there are a number of planes listed online at excessive prices by people who may be under pressure to sell (honey, you need to sell your airplane), or would be willing to sell if the price was right. 

Maintenance costs have been reasonable and I don't believe much different from what it costs to maintain a retractable Cessna and parts aren't too bad, especially if you compare the costs to a Beechcraft. Though a Bonanza is a sweet machine and I'd love to have one if I had the money. 

I keep my minimums conservative, but I have had weather turn on me and flown ILS approaches to minimums and got myself into an embedded build-up once that didn't paint until after I was inside of it and was terrifying, but I came through alright. I fixed the PC system after that (in my case, there were dry-rotted hoses behind the panel). Though the fox says the grapes are sour and that Bonanzas also have "too many" statistical in-flight breakups for my comfort. 

I have friends at KMTN and have been meaning to come visit for some time now...

Edited January 5, 2016 by Antares

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Mark.

You might be interested in the NJ Mooney pilot's organization.  Having a Mooney will give you the freedom to travel beyond state lines....

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Mark -- there are a few of us in your area. Jerry who owns an Ovation is based I believe at Martin State. He changed his name on the site and will look it up for you.

I own a 75 F and you want to check out an F, let me know and we can try to figure out when and where we can meet up.

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[ryoder]

I agree that any airlane is going to be a money pit.  This is my first and it took me a while to come to grips with the continual squawks and expenditures.  I am still not totally comfortable with it but every time I go show off the Mooney and I get flattering comments such as "wow, that is fifty years old" or "wow, that is beautiful" it somehow makes it all ok.

[Flyingbeard]

WOW! Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. I am excited, the more I read and learn about the M20's, the more, I think that is the airplane that best fits my mission. I have been saving my AMUs, so if I find the right plane, I am ready. 

I will check out the NJ Mooney's Pilots Org. I work out of NYC (EWR, LGA & JFK) and make the drive up the turnpike a few times a month.

Antares, I am glad that your mishap ended so well. Thanks for sharing. 

[Flyingbeard]

I have been researching the Beech spar issues, man what a nightmare.

[Bob - S50]

Mark,

Welcome.  Per my usual run on mouth, this will be long.  Sorry.

I'll add my $0.02 worth.  This is a great place to learn about Mooneys.  If you want an equally biased opinion of Beech aircraft, join the BeechTalk forum http://www.beechtalk.com

I have 3 partners and we own an M20J.  There is no more efficient, production, 4 seat airplane flying.  Having good partners if you can find them not only gives you more money to buy a nicer plane, it also keeps the fixed costs down which leaves you more money to spend on actual flying.  Even one good partner will make a big difference in cost.  Depending on how much and what type of flying you plan to do, you may even find very few scheduling conflicts.  Among the 4 of us, we fly the plane about 150 hours/year.  In two years we have not run into a scheduling conflict yet.

I'll say the same thing here I've said many times elsewhere, unless you never plan to have more than 2 people in your plane, be sure to ask about the useful load for any airplane you consider.  I've seen Mooney's with useful loads anywhere from just over 800 lbs to just over 1000 lbs.  HUGE difference in flexibility.  And if you are looking at a Bonanza, be sure to do a sample weight and balance for 3 or 4 adults.  I considered buying into a local V35B, but when I did a weight and balance, 4 normally sized adults put the plane out the aft end of the CG envelope.

Concerning the Mooney J model in particular.  I'm like you.  I flew for a living for 39 years.  I'm old and not a flexible as I once was.  With that in mind, I MUCH prefer a '78 and newer to a '77 model.  The '77 has the fuel selector valve between the pilot's feet while the '78 has it between the seats.  Much easier for an old guy like me to reach.  Also, most if not all of the '77 models had airline like levers for throttle, prop, and mixture.  Our '78 has push pull knobs and vernier controls for the prop and mixture.  I like that a bunch more for making small changes, especially the mixture.

Since you are used to flying heavy metal, I think you will appreciate an IFR certified GPS like a GNS430/530, GTN650/750, or Avidyne 440/540.  The GTN makes it quite a bit easier to load a flight plan than the GNS series.  Be sure it is WAAS capable.  I've found that I much prefer flying an LPV approach through the weather than an ILS.  Much more stable indications.  It will also provide a legal position source for the ADS-B mentioned earlier.

Speaking of ADS-B, if you find a plane that has a KT76A transponder, upgrading to ADS-B will probably cost you less than $3000.  Just buy a Trig TT31 (or KT74, made by Trig for King).  It uses the same tray as the KT76A and they only need to run one wire (I believe it's only one anyway) from your WAAS GPS to the transponder.  Just a couple hours of install time.  The TT31 currently goes for about $2400.

Just because an airplane hasn't flown much, doesn't mean the engine is no good.  It depends on a lot of factors like climate, hangar, oil changes, frequency of operation, and how it was used.  The plane we have didn't fly for 10 years, but it sat in a hangar in a dry climate the entire time.  Have it checked out by that Mooney Service Center and see what they think.

Once last thing.  You'll hear arguments about LOP/ROP.  There are many on this and other forums.  Just do a search.  No need to start another food fight.  Here is a link to a website that has lots of good articles including how to fly your engine: Pelican's Perch

Best of luck,

Bob

[Oldguy]

Mark,

Welcome aboard!

Even though you see many Mooney's on both sides of the US, don't be afraid about those in between. Mine came from Baton Rouge and had its last two annuals done by Don Maxwell (a name you will come to hear a lot in the Mooney world). It is an '84 J model and has served me well for the past three years with few problems and relatively inexpensive annuals.

You may hear talk about the interior space on the different models but there are several on here who are taller than average and maybe larger than the standard 170# FAA passenger and fit very well in our planes. I am 6'5" and 215# and carry a full load of four at times with below GW takeoff and legal reserves for a quick 2 hour hop. On longer flights between Alabama and Texas to see family there is usually no more than three and we can go the 3 1/2 hours non-stop.

I will also second Bob's comments on a WAAS GPS. I recently had the King KT-74 transponder put in to replace my KT-76A and get ADS-B Out. It was in and out of the avionics shop in a day with a single wire needing to be run from the GPS to the transponder.

I look forward to hearing about your new-to-you plane in the coming months.

John

[DaV8or]

Welcome Mark! (Flyingbeard) 

My only comments are, given your experience and needs, I would say pay the extra cash and get a J if you can swing it. You won't be left wanting more.

[rbridges]

Just now, DaV8or said:

Welcome Mark! (Flyingbeard) 

My only comments are, given your experience and needs, I would say pay the extra cash and get a J if you can swing it. You won't be left wanting more.

J's are nice.  I've said several times that they are one of the best all around mooneys IMO.  But if you end up grabbing a nice F, I think you'll be more than happy with it.  I purchased a C when I was in the market for an E.  Absolutely no regrets except wishing I made more money to keep up with everyone's panel upgrades.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

[helitim]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

"You might be interested in the NJ Mooney pilot's organization.  Having a Mooney will give you the freedom to travel beyond state lines...."

Have they finally decided to get your guys corralled in state?

 

[carusoam]

Many of us aren't from NJ.

Some of us like to fly into NJ.

Plenty of us fly right over NJ.

Go NJ!

-a-

[gsengle]

I judge states by the duration of their foreflight download lol

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