trading up

[Av8]

I'm getting close to 2 years with my '78 J, and as I expected am going to move up over the next year or so.  George "the bonanza man" is right up the street - and the 36 could make sense in many ways but I've come to love the Mooney.  

Mission - I live in NC and 75% of my flight time is solo xc work travel - have 20 offices from PA to south Florida - 600NM is longest trip (KINT - KFXE) with several 150-250NM trips.  I also travel north to MI to visit family, or short trips say 100-150NM beach, mountains, family etc.  Very seldom do I carry more than 2 passengers - why get a 6 place machine - there is one two hangars over I could probably swap time with?

Issue with the J - "slow & low" - faster is always great, but also ability to get above weather in the southeast has become somewhat of a challenge - getting up in the flight levels would get over or enable "around" a good deal more weather.  Also icing is an issue trying to travel year round so TKS ability is a big plus.  Flights to Michigan & particularly south florida (5 hrs @ 150 KTS true and a head wind) are tough on the bladder and patience...

My  budget limits - so probably a 90s era or may early 2000s is all I can afford.  Thinking the "Bravo" is the best fit, newer than 252 and don't want to mess with a 231.   Acclaim is out of my budget.  I've thought about ovation as it can go up to 18 - maybe high enough?  

couple question for the group - knowing I have an m20J that has had some good attention over the past couple of years, best to trade or try to sell then buy?  Who to deal with on the buy side?  Premier aircraft in Fort Lauderdale and All American in TX seem to be the biggest?

And if you're in the market - a little about my J

'78m 3700 tt airframe, 600 hrs since factory new engine and hartzell "top prop" install.

prop OH in 2015 by Sensenich in GA 

KFC 200 AP with flight director 

GNS 650/430 stack
Garmin 350 audio panel, 4-place intercom, music jack in rear for passengers, music jack up front for all4, bose ports up front
GTX 33 es transponder with ADS-B out
106-A nav 2 glideslope/indicator
HSI

JPI EDM 900 primary instrumentation

2015 tempest finewire plugs

2015 new interior - tan leather, new carpet, painted plastic, removed fiberglass insulation for closed cell soundproofing

 

I've recently posted about paint - paint is in her future, though not a desperate need.  I've posted several pics from the interior upgrade as well.

 

Thanks to all for input/advice.

 

[Tony Armour]

I owned an 83 J for about six years and now have owned my TLS for ten years. I have never regretted it, not one time. You do not have to live in the big mountains of the west to make it work for you (as some will say) The only Bo that would compare would need to be turbo normalized.

Expect fuel at 20gph and an overhaul at $60k.

This airplane just came up on Beechtalk yesterday, looks like a decent price to me if you want TKS. I don't know if it has been on the market long or before. With oil analysis and the fairly recent top, I would not hesitate to run the engine to 2200-2300 hours. I'm actually in the same boat with mine 1925 TT and 600 or so since a TOH. 

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=114902 

[Bob_Belville]

Are you sure you'll be trading up?  ISTM you've got an ideal plane for where you're based and your stated missions. When I was traveling for business and using a M20E out of KMRN in western NC, usually alone, from FL to ME to WI to TX and all points in between (back in the '70s & '80s) I flew 250 hours every year for 10 or more years and almost never scrubbed a flight due to weather. East of the Rockys I doubt there are many flights where the flight levels would make it possible to go when the flight could not be flown below 10,000. 

But of course it is your nickle. Looks like someone is going to get a chance to buy a pretty well equipped J.

 

[Tony Armour]

See, I told you what folks would say. I just thought it might take a LITTLE longer..... BOB :-) 

There have been quite a few flights I would not have done in the 201. There have been a LOT of flights in the TLS where I was in the blue skies and with the 201 it would not have been near as enjoyable of a  flight. My wife likes blue skies, no clouds, and no weather :-)

No wind flight:

 

[Tony Armour]

Just for kicks, here is the same flight with the profile I used with my 201.

 

 

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, Tony Armour said:

See, I told you what folks would say. I just thought it might take a LITTLE longer..... BOB :-) 

There have been quite a few flights I would not have done in the 201. There have been a LOT of flights in the TLS where I was in the blue skies and with the 201 it would not have been near as enjoyable of a  flight. My wife likes blue skies, no clouds, and no weather :-)

No wind flight:

 

Same flight in my slow F

You are 54 minutes faster, with 22 gallons more fuel burned. It all comes down to the point of economics you want and can afford.

 

[M20F]

I recommend All American Aircraft and they will work to get rid of both the old and find you a new one.  Dave & Jimmy are great and they stand by their word (and that cost them on my deal and I pay it back every time somebody asks about them).  Good luck in the search sounds like you have it dialed in as to what you want.

[Bravoman]

Love my Bravo. Can't imagine a better plane for your mission profile. Looks like there are a lot of them for sale now too.

[kmyfm20s]

Don't discount a Ovation with the 310stc. I live in the "big mountians out west" territory and climb up to turbo levels and get similar to K performance up there. I fly between 6 offices and for as much flying as I do the simplicity and fuel economy of the NA engine really appealled to me. The reality is I don't need to fly that high very often but when I do I have the climb rate and speed to do it. 

 

[Danb]

av8,  i went through the same action, I owned 2 J models for about 20 years my 1988 I bought new. I wanted a more powerful airplane, as above don't forget about an Ovation, I bought a new Bravo, only situation is a bastard G 1000, that I love but Mooney has to do something sooner or later to upgrade us to WAAS and ADSB. I wouldn't trade my Bravo for another type of plane, so I'm quite pleased, I generally fly with my wife or another person, I'm not a big guy so the Mooney fits, I did love my J and it  fit my flying, but on long trips with long range tanks its hard to beat my Bravo, I have quite a cross-country machine. Since the Acclaim was not out when I bought the Bravo that choice was not available or most likely I'd have an Acclaim.

Good luck and try to stay in the family.

 

[M20F]

21 minutes ago, Danb said:

Since the Acclaim was not out when I bought the Bravo that choice was not available or most likely I'd have an Acclaim.

Still can!

[carusoam]

Climbing the rungs of the Mooney ladder...

Once you have reached the M20J level, the path branches into the more specialized missions.

1) Are you and your passengers comfortable using an O2 system? If yes, go turbo.

2) Are you wanting to fly in the crummiest weather possible? If yes, go FIKI.

3) Are you wanting to put full sized adults in the most comfortable back seat? If yes, go Long Body.

4) Are you desiring the most precision navigation, weather, and traffic capability? If yes, look for GTNs with a few other boxes supporting them.

My favorite examples around MS...

1) Erik's Rocket. TC'd, anti ice, composite prop, and anti stall devices on the wing.

2) Cris' Eagle. 310hp! I was hooked on HP/Weight ratios after my first flight.

3) Joe's Acclaim. TN'd 310hp all the way up.

I'm a big fan of LOP cruising.  Economy, clean running and easier on cylinder health. Look for curvy air intakes that are balanced for good LOP ops.

Hope that helps,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Climbing the rungs of the Mooney ladder...

Once you have reached the M20J level, the path branches into the more specialized missions.

1) Are you and your passengers comfortable using an O2 system? If yes, go turbo.

2) Are you wanting to fly in the crummiest weather possible? If yes, go FIKI.

3) Are you wanting to put full sized adults in the most comfortable back seat? If yes, go Long Body.

4) Are you desiring the most precision navigation, weather, and traffic capability? If yes, look for GTNs with a few other boxes supporting them.

My favorite examples around MS...

1) Erik's Rocket. TC'd, anti ice, composite prop, and anti stall devices on the wing.

2) Cris' Eagle. 310hp! I was hooked on HP/Weight ratios after my first flight.

3) Joe's Acclaim. TN'd 310hp all the way up.

I'm a big fan of LOP cruising.  Economy, clean running and easier on cylinder health. Look for curvy air intakes that are balanced for good LOP ops.

Hope that helps,

-a-

Cool - niner three three made the honor role.  She has a paint job coming in late spring to sparkle-up the appearance too - top secret design.

[Tony Armour]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

Same flight in my slow F

You are 54 minutes faster, with 22 gallons more fuel burned. It all comes down to the point of economics you want and can afford.

 

19 gallons more, and 40 minutes faster. A few minutes after I posted the 201 numbers I realized I didn't change from the 16,000' so I had to redo the flight numbers.

I'm willing to pay that to make more flights, go faster AND keep my wife in blue skies !

If I figured right, 75 hours a year will cost around $2,000 more in fuel. In aviation a $2,000 swing in a year doesn't seem like a big deal.

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

Same flight in my slow F

You are 54 minutes faster, with 22 gallons more fuel burned. It all comes down to the point of economics you want and can afford.

 

Yeah - so what.  You are 29 gallons more than a Prius on the same route and ONLY 7 hours faster.  Plus avgas is more expensive that car gas.  51mpg.  Let's all sell our airplane and buy a ...

No!  Wait!

One of these fine ITALIAN machines will get you there

http://946.vespa.com/en

at 117mpg in 7.6gal.

...or in a bit more style and speed, a nice G650, 500gal, and "about" under an 1:15.

https://www.aircraftcostcalculator.com/media/121000/acc_report_g650_vs_f7x.pdf

[M20F]

So Erik a Vespa scooter leaves KINT at 1800zulu, while at the same time Maurader leaves KFXE in his M20F.....

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, M20F said:

So Erik a Vespa scooter leaves KINT at 1800zulu, while at the same time Maurader leaves KFXE in his M20F.....

Wait-wait!  I'm good at those problems.....!

[Marauder]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - so what.  You are 29 gallons more than a Prius on the same route and ONLY 7 hours faster.  Plus avgas is more expensive that car gas.  51mpg.  Let's all sell our airplane and buy a ...

No!  Wait!

One of these fine ITALIAN machines will get you there

http://946.vespa.com/en

at 117mpg in 7.6gal.

...or in a bit more style and speed, a nice G650, 500gal, and "about" under an 1:15.

https://www.aircraftcostcalculator.com/media/121000/acc_report_g650_vs_f7x.pdf

If you want to get really silly. Let's take an M1A2 Abrams and burn 1,324 gallons and get there in 16.5 hours (provided we can maintain max cruise). :)

[Marauder]

4 hours ago, M20F said:

So Erik a Vespa scooter leaves KINT at 1800zulu, while at the same time Maurader leaves KFXE in his M20F.....

That's easy, Erik drowns as he tries to get to STARY intersection. Gurgle, gurgle...

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

That's easy, Erik drowns as he tries to get to STARY intersection. Gurgle, gurgle...

yer mean.

[Auctioneer]

Just bought a 2005 Ovation 2 GX. Love it, 12000' 15gph. Based in South MIssissippi and use it to travel between Hattiesburg (home) & Midland TX, Myrtle Beach, West Palm and all points in between. True at 192 and it loves 9000-12000' All I think it needs is WAAS to compliment the G1000. Richard with Premier from the AUO office sold me N26FF and stood behind the deal the whole way. Currently flying 50-60 hours a month and have been over most of the weather so far. Love the times,

MAF-HBG 3:10 

HBG-PBI 3:15

HBG-CRE 2:40

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, auctioneer.

And welcome to the O Club.

Best regards,

-a-

[N33GG]

Lots of good Bonanzas out there, and that is a very fine aircraft (not knocking Mooneys either).  I have been noticing the Bonanza market is on the same dramatic slide down, just like other aircraft.  There are some incredible deals out there... a true buyers market, including Bonanzas.  Unbelievable.

[StevenL757]

On November 10, 2015 at 00:34:14, Av8 said:

I'm getting close to 2 years with my '78 J, and as I expected am going to move up over the next year or so.  George "the bonanza man" is right up the street - and the 36 could make sense in many ways but I've come to love the Mooney.  

Mission - I live in NC and 75% of my flight time is solo xc work travel - have 20 offices from PA to south Florida - 600NM is longest trip (KINT - KFXE) with several 150-250NM trips.  I also travel north to MI to visit family, or short trips say 100-150NM beach, mountains, family etc.  Very seldom do I carry more than 2 passengers - why get a 6 place machine - there is one two hangars over I could probably swap time with?

Issue with the J - "slow & low" - faster is always great, but also ability to get above weather in the southeast has become somewhat of a challenge - getting up in the flight levels would get over or enable "around" a good deal more weather.  Also icing is an issue trying to travel year round so TKS ability is a big plus.  Flights to Michigan & particularly south florida (5 hrs @ 150 KTS true and a head wind) are tough on the bladder and patience...

My  budget limits - so probably a 90s era or may early 2000s is all I can afford.  Thinking the "Bravo" is the best fit, newer than 252 and don't want to mess with a 231.   Acclaim is out of my budget.  I've thought about ovation as it can go up to 18 - maybe high enough?  

couple question for the group - knowing I have an m20J that has had some good attention over the past couple of years, best to trade or try to sell then buy?  Who to deal with on the buy side?  Premier aircraft in Fort Lauderdale and All American in TX seem to be the biggest?

And if you're in the market - a little about my J

'78m 3700 tt airframe, 600 hrs since factory new engine and hartzell "top prop" install.

prop OH in 2015 by Sensenich in GA 

KFC 200 AP with flight director 

GNS 650/430 stack
Garmin 350 audio panel, 4-place intercom, music jack in rear for passengers, music jack up front for all4, bose ports up front
GTX 33 es transponder with ADS-B out
106-A nav 2 glideslope/indicator
HSI

JPI EDM 900 primary instrumentation

2015 tempest finewire plugs

2015 new interior - tan leather, new carpet, painted plastic, removed fiberglass insulation for closed cell soundproofing

 

I've recently posted about paint - paint is in her future, though not a desperate need.  I've posted several pics from the interior upgrade as well.

 

Thanks to all for input/advice.

 

Honestly, given your budget and mission, your best bet is an Ovation with TKS...preferably with the 310 STC.  Longest range of anything in the line, you'll go LOP at every possible opportunity, and is more forgiving on the wallet than a Bravo or anything else with a turbo.

[TWinter]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2015‎ ‎10‎:‎43‎:‎01‎, Auctioneer said:

Just bought a 2005 Ovation 2 GX. Love it, 12000' 15gph. Based in South MIssissippi and use it to travel between Hattiesburg (home) & Midland TX, Myrtle Beach, West Palm and all points in between. True at 192 and it loves 9000-12000' All I think it needs is WAAS to compliment the G1000. Richard with Premier from the AUO office sold me N26FF and stood behind the deal the whole way. Currently flying 50-60 hours a month and have been over most of the weather so far. Love the times,

MAF-HBG 3:10 

HBG-PBI 3:15

HBG-CRE 2:40

 

If I had to bet I would say that picture is at Union City, TN airport?