Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Any one have any thoughts on: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1967-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1355845.htm One thing that bothers me is it had a engine rebuild in 2006, but only has 43 hours on it now. It seems it has been out of annual for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 This one has been for sale for a really really long time. It seems good by looking at the controller ad, but there must be some issues. I figure there have been plenty of people look at it and pass for one reason or another. But, then again, maybe F market buyers don't want a turbo??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 It says it is located in Stockton, Ca. Top Gun is also located there. It's very likely they know the plane, if I was interested I would start by calling them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 IDK, actually for me, the turbo is a plus. Hopefully someone on here has already looked at it and can chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 It says it is located in Stockton, Ca. Top Gun is also located there. It's very likely they know the plane, if I was interested I would start by calling them. Good idea. I will do that tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 pucks look worn and nose gear doors need to be adjusted, looks like one has a bad connector? Easily a $5k annual with the time its been sitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 The first show stopper for me would be for $55k and an IFR platform, I'd expect a second Com radio. The second may be the 43 hours in 9 years. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Way of annual, subpar avionics, basically hasn't flown since overhaul 9 years ago. Has it been appropriately mothballed? Price seems way too high in this context, needs lots of digging to make sure it's worth it even at a lower price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Previous owner http://napavalleyregister.com/obituaries/norman-gene-alumbaugh/article_3e32234d-8f7f-5191-a4b3-77fdfc78b702.html If you look at registration the broker has owned awhile and I would guess would like to get rid of it (money costs money), given the obituary they probably got it cheap. It would see from just a little Internet research the previous owner took pretty good care of it. Discount a bit for sitting and get a good PPI (LASAR seems ideal) and go for it. I look all the time at what is out there and this is the 2-3 vintage with a Rayjay that I have seen out there since buying mine so if the turbo is desired it is really worth looking at. From my perspective 67 was the best year on the F (flush rivets + manual gear and flaps) and the Rayjay is a very nice bonus. I am a bit biased though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 My grandpa had a 67 F with a Rayjay as well. I miss that plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 This one has been for sale for a really really long time. It seems good by looking at the controller ad, but there must be some issues. I figure there have been plenty of people look at it and pass for one reason or another. But, then again, maybe F market buyers don't want a turbo??? It's pretty easy to figure out. 43 SMOH...10 years ago. That engine is likely trash. Low end VFR only GPS NAV/COM with no secondary COM or NAV. Visible rust in the photos. New prop and engine overhauled at the same time. Gear up or prop strike? Out of annual, pitot static out (not that it really matters this is a VFR only plane), ELT dead. This guy has been sitting on the ramp rotting for 9 or so years and they still are asking near top end F model pricing. They are out of their minds. It's probably corroded, the engine is likely garbage and the panel is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 The engine is not likely trash, it is an unknown. It has 43 hours on it. It was essential broken in and ceased to be flown. Neither Stockton nor Napa are exactly a rainforest climates. Whichever place it is actually located is going to be pretty dry for much of the year. Storage will play a roll on condition. The engine is either corroded or it is not. Price it as timed out or spend the money to have a jug pulled. An molested normalized F with built in O2 is not something one comes across every day. Set up and run properly, it will likely do 175-180kts (maybe more) up high and probably do it on less fuel than a 231/252. I'd bet it has over or near 1000lbs useful. I would love to see this one back in service. A lot of folks run from planes that have been out of service and are out of annual. I don't blame them, but there are deals to be had. Do let us know about the disposition of the seller. I'm really curious about this one and why it's been on the market for so long. Properly maintained, this could be a really fine airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 I will check into this one further and proceed cautiously. I will return and report! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 What about a panel upgrade? I need an IFR platform. I wonder what the cost would be to get this one up to snuff? I would think the time is has sat and the poor avionics is deterring many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 What about a panel upgrade? I need an IFR platform. I wonder what the cost would be to get this one up to snuff? I would think the time is has sat and the poor avionics is deterring many. At a minimum you'll want a WAAS GPS and a second Com. If you went with a used 430W and a simple Com, you'll be in the $10k range needed. The IFR cert will be several hundred if no problems. Hopefully the transponder works. Lots of unknowns, but worth checking out. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 What about a panel upgrade? I need an IFR platform. I wonder what the cost would be to get this one up to snuff? I would think the time is has sat and the poor avionics is deterring many. Anywhere from the cost of 2 flip/flop nav com's to whatever a G1000 costs installed. I think it is worth a call to the broker to see what they say and go from there. If they are open to negotiating than all the other factors come into play in determining the right price. If they are a firm $55 well than probably doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 The engine is not likely trash, it is an unknown. It has 43 hours on it. It was essential broken in and ceased to be flown. Neither Stockton nor Napa are exactly a rainforest climates. Whichever place it is actually located is going to be pretty dry for much of the year. Storage will play a roll on condition. The engine is either corroded or it is not. Price it as timed out or spend the money to have a jug pulled. An molested normalized F with built in O2 is not something one comes across every day. Set up and run properly, it will likely do 175-180kts (maybe more) up high and probably do it on less fuel than a 231/252. I'd bet it has over or near 1000lbs useful. I would love to see this one back in service. A lot of folks run from planes that have been out of service and are out of annual. I don't blame them, but there are deals to be had. Do let us know about the disposition of the seller. I'm really curious about this one and why it's been on the market for so long. Properly maintained, this could be a really fine airplane. If this was a diamond in the rough someone local would have pick it up by now. Maybe it was properly maintained by the previous owner. Something tells me he didn't pickle it when he stopped flying it though. All I saw when I looked at this plane myself was $$$. How much would they have to come down to in order to make this reasonable. I haven't seen enough RayJay's to get a feel for what they go for, but I can't imagine that they go for enough to make this a deal. The restoration on this plane alone could easily top 50k and that's without an P&I. Treat the engine like it's timed out: 30k New panel 12-25k depending on what you want Probably a 10-12k annual to pick up all the small stuff There is a guy that bought Cherokee 140 in similar condition for $1000 from the previous owner that had lost his medical and let the plane rot for years. That's about what I would personally pay to take on a project like this. Maybe there is someone out there looking for a project to work on, this is a plane for them assuming the airframe isn't corroded beyond repair and the broker realizes his 55k price is insane. Do you actually want to fly? This isn't a plane for someone that wants to fly unless they have very deep pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Would you prefer to be in group A or B..? Group A: Are you looking for a project? Are you looking to take on large ownership risk without saving any money? Find a project with a lower asking price... -or- Group B: Are you looking to fly in IMC immediately upon taking ownership. Find a plane that is currently flying IFR... I accidently fell into group A when I bought my 65C. It took me a decade to get to the next level. No IMC for another decade... If you know you want to own an airplane (I wasn't sure myself), start in the proper group. My thoughts, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 I think it has a lot of potential if the airframe is truly NDH and corrosion free. Everything else can be fixed easily, of course. The turbo normalizer is a great feature that is not commonly found, and not really available to add today. The 201 windscreen is another very nice upgrade. The engine is an unknown and needs to be thoroughly checked if it gets valued at anything higher than a runout. It may run great for another 2000 hours, though. I'd want to go through the overhaul records and see what was done. The interior looks decent IMO and at least has tasteful colors. Paint looks OK too, certainly not bad enough to warrant a new paint job for corrosion protection. The panel is the weakest part of course. No autopilot, no modern GPS, and no engine monitor (should be required, especially with a turbo!). You can pick up a used 430W kit for ~$6500, but you'll need a new CDI as well (another $1500+). You can get a used EDM-700 system for $1200-$1500 and that would be sufficient to do the job. Autopilot...no easy way there since it doesn't look like this plane has the PC system. If you have a long term ownership horizon, then it would be a great candidate to build into what you want IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 I think it has a lot of potential if the airframe is truly NDH and corrosion free. If you have a long term ownership horizon, then it would be a great candidate to build into what you want IMO. This pretty much says it. ....and it's also possible to run across a decent 231 that needs to be upgraded from the ground up for not much more money than the asking price on this M20F. ...or get all the upgrades that KSMooniac has mentioned included in this plane. Would have Don Maxwell look at this one due to the airframe repairs.: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1390449.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 The issue I have with this plane is the value. Compare it to http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1331145.htm which is a 231 with an asking of $85K. I spoke with the owner about 3 years ago and he had lost his medical. I threw a ball park offer out, but he didn't seem interested, so I moved on. I imagine at this time he might be more willing to sell, and it can likely be had for under the ask. As for value, it has older avionics, but it looks like it has an auto pilot and a tank re-seal. Compared to the F you are looking at, it would probably take 30K of avionics to get it to the level of this plane. In any case, this plane is at least flying http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N3991H/history/20150814/1944Z/CZQ/KTRK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Basically, this airplane comes down to- How bad do want a turbo? It is priced the way it is due to the turbo and maybe the misguided belief that it has a nearly new, trouble free engine with 1950 hours of life left. I would pass on this plane unless you really want the turbo. I have to admit the turbo is pretty sexy... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 The issue I have with this plane is the value. Compare it to http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1331145.htm which is a 231 with an asking of $85K. I spoke with the owner about 3 years ago and he had lost his medical. I threw a ball park offer out, but he didn't seem interested, so I moved on. I imagine at this time he might be more willing to sell, and it can likely be had for under the ask. As for value, it has older avionics, but it looks like it has an auto pilot and a tank re-seal. Compared to the F you are looking at, it would probably take 30K of avionics to get it to the level of this plane. In any case, this plane is at least flying http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N3991H/history/20150814/1944Z/CZQ/KTRK Yes, the engine though is in the same deal that the F is; 55 hours SMOH in 2008. I agree though, it is a much better plane with much better avionics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted August 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Well I called the broker and he wasn't in; waiting on a call back. I am not too hopeful though. I think you guys are right, it will take to much to get it in shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarmaster Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 A couple more things to think about. The engine, I wouldn't be too concerned about that. Mine was overhauled in 1994 and had 12 hours on it when I bought it. The guy overhauled it, got sick and died. I talked at length with the engine shop on the field and they said they would not be scared of it. Mine wasn't even broke in when I got it so there is a difference there. So far so good on mine. I have put 150ish hours on it with no issues. Time will tell, but i believe I am beyond the infant mortality stage. In order to protect yourself, try a Mike Busch strategy, escrow $15,000 of the price for a year. Fly the crap out of the airplane and If there are no problems then the broker gets the 15, if it has problems bad enough to overhaul, it goes to the engine shop and you pay half of the re-build rather than the whole thing. The avionics would be a bigger concern, assuming you want an IFR bird. I just got a quote from Sarasota Avionics to upgrade. Aspen, GNS430W, Ads-b compliant xponder, audio panel and a few other things. $40,000. Yes, you read that right. True, this is an all-in -one shot, still.... my point is, avionics are EXPENSIVE! Many things are 'nice to haves" but there are a few "need to haves." The biggest thing I would be looking for is corrosion. In particular, stub-spar corrosion. Although it is a Cali bird, look closely. Good luck!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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