Don Scorese Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 My partner and I are now very seriously considering upgrading to an Ovation, especially because we may have a buyer for our MSE which we weren't advertising or planning to sell until after Oshkosh. Somif this deal happens we would need to find something for OSH. Neother of us have flown in an Ovation or Eagle. There are a few of each we would like to look into, but since this may be very short on time I wanted the opinions and wisdom of the mooneyspace people. I understand a screaming eagle will perform like an Ovation. There seems to be some mixed reports if that actually makes it an Ovation. A friend said the Eagle does not have the fit and finish of an Ovation. It is like putting a Corvette engine ina Camaro, same engine! Same performance! But not the same ride. There are some rumors that the soundproofing is not as good in the Eagle. Any other differences? Does the Eagle have the overhead switches? With the STC is fuel increased to 89 gal? Is gross weight and useful load the same? Finally! My friend with the corvette analogy did say the Eagle would be the same or better than the MSE I currently fly, which I love that plane. Thanks in advance for all the help. If this deal falls through we plan to take our time and actually try and find some Eagle and Ovation owners to take us up so we can make our our decision, but if this deal happens time will be of the essence. Zeke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Just some random facts........ The Eagle was produced from 1999 thru 2002. There were a total of 65 made. A couple have been lost, there are only 59 currently registered. I just came from the Mooney factory, there is one assembly line. All the planes come down the same work stations with the same workers and the same parts bins. The factory would have to work very hard at making "fit and finish" changes to ONLY the Eagles and not the other airframes. The Eagle was the "economy" model so some items were options instead of standard equipment. Like speedbrakes and ground power plug,. The King KFC150 was replaced with STEC autopilot and it had a PMA 7000 audio panel. Cloth seats instead of leather (optional) and maybe some other interior items like overhead cabin lights and rear seat mic and phone jacks (not confirmed) to reduce the price and draw a distinction between the two models. The first 56 planes were two blade McCauley, 244 HP powered. The 2001 Eagle2 (6 planes) had a three blade prop, rudder trim and a 100# gross wt. increase. The last two Eagles were made in 2002. Of course the Screaming Eagle STC changed all of that by increasing power to 310HP, gross wt. went to 3368# (Ovation wt.) and 89 gallons fuel. (again Ovation quantity) basically making the Eagle an Ovation. When you realize the airplane and the engine are identical it is easy to see how this can be done. With a new paint job, new avionics and a fuel quantity retrofit, the only way to tell the difference is the data plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert C. Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 After doing my research I decided that the Eagle was simply a less luxurious version of the Ovation, especially if it is a "Screaming Eagle" (upgraded with the 310hp STC). http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20S_evaluation/M20S_eval.html http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2001/July/1/New-Mooney-Eagle2 Good luck! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 With the Eagle your ride will be same but your interior finish can be very from basic cloth seat, paint and panel to an Ovation look alike. Things that a typical Eagle will not have compared to an ovation are, built in O2, electric trim, leather seats, passenger overhead light and I have heard additional sound insulation. What most people like including myself is the increase in useful load. I liked the basic paint on my Eagle. Mine has leather seat, electric trim, A/C, speed brakes, and I prefer portable O2 and I have about 110lbs more useful load than a similar Ovation. So it was a no brainier for me. With the Sceaming Eagle STC it is an amazing plane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Eagle did have less insulation and soundproofing. Which is not a bad thing. Look at the useful loads. The Eagle I was looking at, before buying the Bravo had 1040 useful with FIKI TKS installed. Rudder trim is a must but was available aftermarket so Mooney can probably still make you a kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have a '95 Firebird Formula and an '94 Ovation... If you like power to weight ratio at the lowest cost, the Formula and the 310hp Screamin Eagle are nice birds... Important things to know... 1) The Firebird will never be mistaken for a Corvette... 2) The Eagle in the right owner's hands can look and perform like an O. 3) by the time the Eagle has been loaded up to have all the trim, instruments and hp... The price and weight may be back to where the O is. 4) 310 hp is worth considering... There is no simple answer of what is better. It boils down to what is better for you... If you like complete, no project, ready to go birds, Go O! The O came in MSE trim as well. These birds have been around so long they are all in a state of renewal. Some have been re-powered, others may have gotten new Waas radios to go with their FDs... My preferences are LT-1s and IO550s... With MSE / Trans-Am icing on the cake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 When I was in search of an Ovation I wanted 3 things. 1) Updated glass panel with WAAS 2) Airconditioning 3) Useful load that equaled or surpass my J. Of course I'm talking about my needs and yours may be different. Almost all the newer Ovation did not have WAAS, so that sent me looking at older Ovation with upgraded panels. The Ovations which had A/C and the panels I liked did not have the useful load that I needed. Then I happened to stubble across a Screaming Eagle that had been significantly upgraded and fit my criteria. I then added the finishing touches and I have the exact plane I wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 The Bravo, Eagle, Ovation and Acclaim, all have the same fuel tank volume. The differences are on the filler conduit depth that limits the refueling speed above the conduit depth. If you are patient and fill to the rim all three will make 100+ gallons. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scorese Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I knew I would be pleased with the feedback on this topic from everyone. In summary, it basically sounds like an Eagle with the 310 hp STC will essentially be almost identical to an Ovation except for overhead switches (maybe), insulation/spundproofing (maybe), basic white paint, cloth interior if not upgraded and no built in O2 if not upgraded. If the STC has not been done then the Eagle 1 will have less climb performance, while the Eagle 2 with the 3 blade prop will be a little better, but both not as good as an Ovation, but certainly better than the MSE I fly now. I am most interested in better climb performance and less concerned with an extra 5 knots in cruise. I want a long body to accomodate the growing family, even if it is only an inch or two extra legroom in the rear seats. Thank you, Zeke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 It seems from looking through the various websites that Ovations sell faster and hold their value better than the Eagles as well. Nothing scientific to back that up, just the impression I walk away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 The deal breaker for me on the Eagle would be the autopilot. The STEC is not up to the standards and speed of the airplane. That would be very expensive to change out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 The deal breaker for me on the Eagle would be the autopilot. The STEC is not up to the standards and speed of the airplane. That would be very expensive to change out. Which S-Tec? Even the lowly 30 when combined with GPSS will do just fine. And the nice thing about S-Tec unlike all the King autopilots, is that they just work without milking you $2500 at a time here and there...Granted no vertical modes. I put about 400 hours of all kinds of flying on a s-tec 30 with GPSS and it never let me down. If it has the 55X then it's about as good of an autopilot as they come, other than Garmin's GFC... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 That's the point, Andy... The Eagle can be upgraded beyond the level of what the O was delivered with. It is quite a job to find the Eagle that best fits the personal mission. First, understanding what the AP is and what it does and doesn't do. Then determine what to add or change out. Adding a used GPSS to some planes is only 1AMU if the right GPS and AP are installed already. The KAP150 is pretty talented. Set the altitude hold at the push of a button. Set the climb rate at the pushes of a button. Same for descent. Set the rate and center the ball using the electric rudder trim... Adding these things new would cost a small fortune. Adding a pair of GTNs and a G500 and 310hp/TopProp is serious money. 100AMU? The lower hp of the original Eagle is too restricting to TO distance. It seems to get buried in the 2 vs 3 blade prop discussion... The coolest Eagles have TN'd 310hp with the IO550(n) engine and composite TopProp. The (n) and composite prop really lower the weight out on the nose.... There are too many Charley weights in the back... This thread should help open up the discussion for the Long Body buyer.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 That's the point, Andy... The Eagle can be upgraded beyond the level of what the O was delivered with. It is quite a job to find the Eagle that best fits the personal mission. First, understanding what the AP is and what it does and doesn't do. Then determine what to add or change out. Adding a used GPSS to some planes is only 1AMU if the right GPS and AP are installed already. The KAP150 is pretty talented. Set the altitude hold at the push of a button. Set the climb rate at the pushes of a button. Same for descent. Set the rate and center the ball using the electric rudder trim... Adding these things new would cost a small fortune. Adding a pair of GTNs and a G500 and 310hp/TopProp is serious money. 100AMU? The lower hp of the original Eagle is too restricting to TO distance. It seems to get buried in the 2 vs 3 blade prop discussion... The coolest Eagles have TN'd 310hp with the IO550(n) engine and composite TopProp. The (n) and composite prop really lower the weight out on the nose.... There are too many Charley weights in the back... This thread should help open up the discussion for the Long Body buyer.... Best regards, -a- KFC 150 is a wonderful, wonderful autopilot, the 75% of the time it works, that is. But let's not forget that to overhaul the whole damn thing is close to $12.5K for servos and heads and another who knows much much for either FD and HSI or a new glass panel to feed it info. And based on my logbooks, every 600 hours or so, a component will break down and you will cut a check between $2500 to $3000. Why is it called Charlie weight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Probably because dead-weight was too awkward...? The nice thing about the weights is they can easily be swapped for more expensive equipment. Like O2 and TKS... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Eagle give you a lot of options. Some people like and prefer them the way they came out factory. Because the Eagle was intended to a successor to the J and is being compared to the Ovation says a lot, they share the same airframe, controls and engine. The comparison in the 2 models needs to done with 1999 and 2000 models in mind, not a 2015 O3. Eagle's are one of the best values out there. There where far less made so the inventory on the used market reflects that. The few that have been sitting there for sale have Gremblins in them and the sellers haven't adjusted the price to move them. Because they where sold as a basic plane many have been upgraded over time and same for the O's of the same vintage. 310 hp, Aspen's, G500's, GNS or GTN, are not uncommon. Many maintain the STec 30 because most felt it was a perfectly capable autopilot. I happen to have the 310 hp, G500, GTN's and 55X in mine and you would be hard pressed to find many Non G1000 O's as nice. I look at the cost difference between the 2 models as the opportunity to make the exact plane I wanted and have money left over to add fun accessories. With so few produce if you can a find a clean one out there and the previous owner spent the AMU's on upgrades, your in luck! If not the pool of O's is much larger and easier to shop from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 My partner and I are now very seriously considering upgrading to an Ovation, especially because we may have a buyer for our MSE which we weren't advertising or planning to sell until after Oshkosh. Somif this deal happens we would need to find something for OSH. Neother of us have flown in an Ovation or Eagle. There are a few of each we would like to look into, but since this may be very short on time I wanted the opinions and wisdom of the mooneyspace people. I understand a screaming eagle will perform like an Ovation. There seems to be some mixed reports if that actually makes it an Ovation. A friend said the Eagle does not have the fit and finish of an Ovation. It is like putting a Corvette engine ina Camaro, same engine! Same performance! But not the same ride. There are some rumors that the soundproofing is not as good in the Eagle. Any other differences? Does the Eagle have the overhead switches? With the STC is fuel increased to 89 gal? Is gross weight and useful load the same? Finally! My friend with the corvette analogy did say the Eagle would be the same or better than the MSE I currently fly, which I love that plane. Thanks in advance for all the help. If this deal falls through we plan to take our time and actually try and find some Eagle and Ovation owners to take us up so we can make our our decision, but if this deal happens time will be of the essence. Zeke I own an Eagle. Happy to talk with you about its virtues and vices. Send a PM if you'd like to chat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Which S-Tec? Even the lowly 30 when combined with GPSS will do just fine. And the nice thing about S-Tec unlike all the King autopilots, is that they just work without milking you $2500 at a time here and there...Granted no vertical modes. I put about 400 hours of all kinds of flying on a s-tec 30 with GPSS and it never let me down. If it has the 55X then it's about as good of an autopilot as they come, other than Garmin's GFC... The Eagle has a STEC 30 so it won't track a glideslope or do a LNAV approach. For a simple autopilot with altitude hold the 30 is OK and if it's combined with GPSS it makes cross country flights easy. I had an STEC 55x in a partnership on a Piper Mirage and an STEC 550 in a partnership on a Piper Meridian. They are ok, but still no match for a King that has a nice firm turn on a localizer intercept or a decisive descent on a glideslope capture. The STEC in both of those airplanes hunted around for a course at times - even with a trip to the factory in Mineral Wells. If ATC brought you in above the glidepath you were going to hand fly the approach. Instructors for SIMCOM, the company that does recurrent training in those airplanes nicknamed the STEC autopilot S-TURN as the course intercept was vague at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 With both King and STec autopilots if your above the GS it will not automatically capture it. With the STec 55x you can force the GS capture by pressing the ALT button which I was unable to do with my King. I have no problem with King A/P's BTW but I think the 55x is superior. I don't find it hunting for the localizer or G/S but that is a usually a relationship with the antenna's, connectors, navigators and sensivity setting. I haven't heard any complaints with the STec/G1000 Mooneys expect for the WAAS issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 The Eagle has a STEC 30 so it won't track a glideslope or do a LNAV approach. For a simple autopilot with altitude hold the 30 is OK and if it's combined with GPSS it makes cross country flights easy. I had an STEC 55x in a partnership on a Piper Mirage and an STEC 550 in a partnership on a Piper Meridian. They are ok, but still no match for a King that has a nice firm turn on a localizer intercept or a decisive descent on a glideslope capture. The STEC in both of those airplanes hunted around for a course at times - even with a trip to the factory in Mineral Wells. If ATC brought you in above the glidepath you were going to hand fly the approach. Instructors for SIMCOM, the company that does recurrent training in those airplanes nicknamed the STEC autopilot S-TURN as the course intercept was vague at best. I have heard from a couple of avionics shops that the 55 and 55X aren't as crisp as the 60. I have been flying with a 60-2 that I installed new in 1998. I have a YouTube video: http://youtu.be/-PE2qxmqk94 that shows close to an 80° intercept with the 60-2 on an LPV. It will go through the course a little, but corrects nicely. The intercept starts around 8:00. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinKalb Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Zeke, I sent you a PM. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I knew I would be pleased with the feedback on this topic from everyone. In summary, it basically sounds like an Eagle with the 310 hp STC will essentially be almost identical to an Ovation except for overhead switches (maybe), insulation/spundproofing (maybe), basic white paint, cloth interior if not upgraded and no built in O2 if not upgraded. If the STC has not been done then the Eagle 1 will have less climb performance, while the Eagle 2 with the 3 blade prop will be a little better, but both not as good as an Ovation, but certainly better than the MSE I fly now. I am most interested in better climb performance and less concerned with an extra 5 knots in cruise. I want a long body to accomodate the growing family, even if it is only an inch or two extra legroom in the rear seats. Thank you, Zeke Zeke...where are you located? My offer is similar to George's...would love to show you my Ovation and discuss further if you find value in it. PM me if interested. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 With both King and STec autopilots if your above the GS it will not automatically capture it. With the STec 55x you can force the GS capture by pressing the ALT button which I was unable to do with my King. My KFC 150 has no problem capturing from above the GS. in APPR mode with ALT off press the rocker arm down. At GS intercept the GS light will light and the GS will be followed. Not a good idea to intercept with too much V/S. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 My KFC 150 has no problem capturing from above the GS. in APPR mode with ALT off press the rocker arm down. At GS intercept the GS light will light and the GS will be followed. Not a good idea to intercept with too much V/S. Well, One learns something new every day. I'll try this out this Sunday when I go out to do my six and hold. Omaha approach has a tendency to do this to me every now and then and I would just simply turn off the autopilot all together and hand fly. I'd probably still hand fly it due to high negative VS required but at least this way I'd get FD guidance once I slowly level off. I wonder if KFC325 will do the same thing. I was in the TBM two weeks ago and Fargo did the same thing to us and the pilot just hand flew the approach without FD guidance. Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 I have heard from a couple of avionics shops that the 55 and 55X aren't as crisp as the 60. I have been flying with a 60-2 that I installed new in 1998. I have a YouTube video: http://youtu.be/-PE2qxmqk94 that shows close to an 80° intercept with the 60-2 on an LPV. It will go through the course a little, but corrects nicely. The intercept starts around 8:00. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Agreed on the 60-2. The one in my Saratoga was put in in the early 90s and is solid as a rock. You can also force glide slope capture by pressing alt if above GS. The KFC 150 in the mooney works really well but if I had to choose I'd pick the stec. I also like the fact the stec is rate based and independent of the vacuum system 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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