Metal in the Oil Filter

[Houman]

Oakley dokley Cowboy.

Ned Gravel

Lucky steward of C-FSWR, a '65 E model at Rockcliffe, Ontario, (CYRO)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ned, as a fellow Canadian pilot, if you want me to stop by Ottawa RockCliffe on my way to Caravan and pick you up, that would be my pleasure. A pilot friend of mine and I are going for sure, waiting confirmation on 3rd person, so depending how much you weight and how much luddgage you have, we can see what can be arranged in my Rocket.

Now mine is going into annual end of June, just did an oil change in May and it was clean and have had 15 flight in May, but got chills reading your story. I wish I was closer to Clarence for my annual, I'm near Montreal.

PM me if you think you want me to pick you up for the Caravan and Osh.

[Guest]

So sorry to hear this Ned. I have come to accept that this is the eventual fate for most of us with Lycomings that didn't have control of the engine since rebuild/new, and don't fly that often. That means me. I have the money in the bank set aside for this day. I know my number will come up too. Every oil change is a nail biter it seems.

 

If only Lycoming and Continental could get into bed and have a baby with both good top ends and solid camshaft lubrication.

 

Question for Clarence-

 

How do you "purge" the oil cooler and the prop governor?

Anything which contains oil will be sent for cleaning, prop governor will be sent to the prop shop for disassembly and cleaning, oil cooler sent for flushing or overhaul.

Clarence

[Guest]

Were you doing lean of peak operations ever? This looks like what you might find if you had uneven fuel injectors.

I'm confused as to how lean of peak or bad fuel injectors could cause camshaft corrosion and lifter face spalling. In my experience no engine is immune, Continental and Lycoming suffer the same issues. It happens with every brand of oil, with or without additives such as Camguard.

In my opinion it's a combination of shitty metallurgy and bit of inactivity.

Clarence

[yvesg]

Ned, as a fellow Canadian pilot, if you want me to stop by Ottawa RockCliffe on my way to Caravan and pick you up, that would be my pleasure. A pilot friend of mine and I are going for sure, waiting confirmation on 3rd person, so depending how much you weight and how much luddgage you have, we can see what can be arranged in my Rocket.

Now mine is going into annual end of June, just did an oil change in May and it was clean and have had 15 flight in May, but got chills reading your story. I wish I was closer to Clarence for my annual, I'm near Montreal.

PM me if you think you want me to pick you up for the Caravan and Osh.

Houman, I do not know if you are going to camp in Oshkosh or not? I go with my wife and the aircraft is "full load". I could not even fit a 5 year old kid in the back. And Ned is not quite that size/weight.

I have good faith in Clarence. Lets all pray the Mooney gods that no more road blocks get in the way of Ned and Ute!

Yves

[Gone]

Ned, as a fellow Canadian pilot, if you want me to stop by Ottawa RockCliffe on my way to Caravan and pick you up, that would be my pleasure. A pilot friend of mine and I are going for sure, waiting confirmation on 3rd person, so depending how much you weight and how much luddgage you have, we can see what can be arranged in my Rocket.

Now mine is going into annual end of June, just did an oil change in May and it was clean and have had 15 flight in May, but got chills reading your story. I wish I was closer to Clarence for my annual, I'm near Montreal.

PM me if you think you want me to pick you up for the Caravan and Osh.

Thanks for the offer Houman.

Going to Oshkosh means going with Ute, my favourite co pilot. See https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXFn4eeR3aA. Ever, the optimist, I have faith in the following three things:

- Clarance

- one or two more practice sessions with Yves on formation flying before the middle of July, and

- not losing my deposit on the hotel next to runway 09-27 at Oshkosh.

It may be one of the reasons my Caravan call sign is "Flanders." We Neds tend to such characteristics.

Ned Gravel

Lucky steward of C-FSWR, a '65 E model at Rockcliffe, Ontario, (CYRO)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Andy95W]

In my experience no engine is immune, Continental and Lycoming suffer the same issues. It happens with every brand of oil, with or without additives such as Camguard.

In my opinion it's a combination of shitty metallurgy and bit of inactivity.

Clarence

My experience also, and one of the things that makes airplane ownership nerve-wracking and frustrating.

I've seen airplanes that flew 30 hours a year on straight weight oil and no additives go to TBO. ONE oil change a year.

I've also seen a flight school airplane (Piper Arrow) that flew regularly on 15w-50 with Camguard that got a spalled cam.

Personally, I rotate using Lenkite Avblend and Camguard and hope for the best. (Avblend is supposed to help with valve sticking and protect from corrosion, Camguard everybody knows).

But I think plain old luck has as much to do with it as any additive.

[Sabremech]

My airplane is inactive for long periods of time. I'm not completely sold that time alone is a big factor in this as much as what's the environment like that the airplane is sitting in. Mine has sat all Winter in a heated hangar and has for the last five years with no issues yet to date. I don't use any additives and change my oil on average between 30-50 hours. This issue is not a cut and dry case of not flying enough or did you use Camguard, AvBlend, etc or not.

David

[orionflt]

sorry to hear your out of service, hope Clarence can get you back in the air quickly. I will not be doing the caravan this year, as usual I have way too much going on but I do intend to be in Osh for a few days. Pankey will not make it this year due to work conflicts so I probably won't be setting up camp Quakertown either. 

 

Brian

[MB65E]

I can't say enough good things about PCE. Chris and John are awesome to work with!

They are a great source for excellent Cylinder cores and overhauls.

Sorry to here Ned ! However, I can tell your in good hands.

-Matt

[Gone]

sorry to hear your out of service, hope Clarence can get you back in the air quickly. I will not be doing the caravan this year, as usual I have way too much going on but I do intend to be in Osh for a few days. Pankey will not make it this year due to work conflicts so I probably won't be setting up camp Quakertown either. 

 

Brian

 

Brian:

 

Sorry you won't be there.  And sorry Pankey won't be there either.  We were looking forward to hosting the both of you one more time this year.

[orionflt]

Ned,

I intend to be in osh for a few days in the beginning of the week, I will try to fly in sat, leave wed. I'm just not going to attmp to do the caravan.

 

Brian

[Gone]

OK Brian:

 

We will look for you in the usual spot.  Probably during our tour of A, B, C, and D.

[Andy95W]

This issue is not a cut and dry case of not flying enough or did you use Camguard, AvBlend, etc or not.

David

Agreed. Environment probably has a lot to do with it, although the airplane in question is Canadian so the same environment as yours and mine. And as Clarence said, possibly shitty metallurgy.

That's why I said luck probably also figures into the equation.

My use of an additive is more for my peace of mind than anything else, although Aviation Consumer magazine did tests and found that some additives were successful in delaying, and even preventing, rust formation during their tests compared to straight weight oils.

So I figure $40/year and hope for the best.

[Marauder]

I guess a good fundamental question to ask is this; For those of you who have experienced engines making metal, have any of you asked for and obtained a metallurgy report that looked at the failed component(s)? A friend of mine had a prop break in flight. There were able to determine from the remaining portion that intergranular corrosion existed (http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X19629&key=1&queryId=f8d29eb9-6680-4954-b84a-bcb4b860fcf1&pgno=1&pgsize=200).

 

I had an issue once where an exhaust stack stud failed leading to the second nut to back off allowing the exhaust tube coming off of the cylinder to come free. It was determined that the failure was caused by over torquing the nut on that stud. 

 

Has anyone taken a failed component and tried to determine if the metallurgy was correct and what caused the failure?

[KSMooniac]

And Tennessee sippin' whiskey!

Best wishes, Ned. Hope everything goes smoothly for you.

Or CANADIAN whiskey!     (or Irish, or Texas, or scotch for that matter... I'm an equal opportunity sipper)

 

Sorry to hear of this, Ned.  My lifters weren't nearly as bad as your two after 2100+ hours, but half of the intake lobe for #1/#2 was gone when I took mine down.  I opted to get the Centrilube mod done on my replacement cam and hope it helps on the next TBO run.

[Sabremech]

Agreed. Environment probably has a lot to do with it, although the airplane in question is Canadian so the same environment as yours and mine. And as Clarence said, possibly shitty metallurgy.

 

 

  My airplane is in a heated and dry hangar through Winter and a dry not so humid hangar in the Summer. I'd be interested to hear from those that have found this kind of failure how their airplane was stored when not flying.  

 

What happened to Ned and others is in direct opposition to what the oil additive people market as being the save all to this type of failure. I think Clarence is right on the money with the metallurgy over everything else.

 David

[KSMooniac]

I have no doubt low-bidder/offload/cost-cutting moves on the fabrication of various bits has a LOT to do with the problem, and unfortunately we as owners are pretty much powerless to verify parts on our end before they go into our engines.

FWIW, I bought my plane in early 2007 with almost 1400 SMOH (factory overhaul done in 1991 at Lycoming).  It flew frequently with the previous owner except for extended downtime for interior & window replacement.  It flew frequently with me except for fuel tank work and gear motor replacement in 2008 (down for 6 weeks in MN hangar), cylinder IRAN in 2009 (down for ~6 weeks), and maybe a couple periods of inactivity up to ~4 weeks a handful of times until Oct. 2013 when I measured the cam lobe destruction/loss of valve lift.  I did use Camguard + Phillips for ~ 4 years prior to that, and Aeroshell 80 or 100 prior to that with no Camguard.  

 

I think a major contributor to my cam destruction was the frequently wet/humid hangar that I had until last month.  After a rain, there would be standing water in the low spots of the hangar due to a leaky door and roof.  That could not have been helpful, especially if it coincided with a 4 week down time.  My new hangar doesn't show any evidence of leaks, so I think that will be a huge improvement.

 

My engine rebuild includes the Centrilube cam mod, and I think I'm going to install an Oilamatic preoiler rig as well.  Those combined should reduce the stress on startup at the cam lobe/lifter interface.  I will also likely build a dehumidifier rig to run when parked.  I'll continue with Camguard use after break-in as well since it has data as well as anecdotal stories to support it, and it doesn't cost much anyway.  I hope to never revisit the failing cam subject with my plane again...

[PTK]

Excerpt from Aslcamguard about their magic potion.

"The answer is simple, by not allowing rust to form on highly loaded parts or deposits to build-up on critical parts; the engine continues to operate as if it were new. No rust means no premature overhaul due to failed camshafts."

There's only one minor detail: It's BS! It doesn't work!

The reality is diametrically opposite!!

Not simple at all is it!?

[jetdriven]

but it does work.Aviation consumer tested  metal coupons soaked in oil and hung to dry.  Camguard samples rusted later than all the other ones did.  Does it eliminate corrosion? No. Does it slow it down? I think so.

 

No oil or additive will matter, however if inferior metal is used for the cam or lifters. If the surfaces dont have the sufficient rockwell hardness number, then the face of the lifter flexes slightly when under load. Then the metal collapses underneath, and the surface disintegrates. This is also how potholes are formed.  Three lifters on our plane were spalled. Two on one lobe, but the lobe was almost serviceable, still.

[PTK]

Playing in vitro with some pieces of metal is not the same as what goes on in situ inside the engine!

This has been proven.

[jetdriven]

so, rusting steel coupons inside a humidity cabinet for 30 days in no way resembles what goes on inside a lycoming engine?  Why not?

[PTK]

Because tests like these outside the engine don't represent the conditions present inside an engine. May be close in a few parameters but not in most.

And since you want to believe these results Exxon Elite and Aeroshell 15W50 perform better than phillips with camguard in humidity cabinets! Did you know that?

We all do what we can and hope our engines don't decide to dissintigrate one day. But I'm not convinced camguard is of value on this quest.

My opinion only of course based on observing from the sidelines.

[Hank]

Byron, stop taunting The Dentist and trying to make him prove his unfounded assertions. You're supposed to accept them at face value, just like he does the pronouncements from his favored companies. I'm just not sure how he selects which to believe when there are companies spouting contradictory information. Maybe gross corporate sales, company size, demographics or even just sticking to the ones he has heard more often. 

[Gone]

Thanks to all you who have sent good wishes.  Worry not.  I am confident Ute and I will be flying the Caravan.  

 

Flanders.

[jetdriven]

Because tests like these outside the engine don't represent the conditions present inside an engine. May be close in a few parameters but not in most.

And since you want to believe these results Exxon Elite and Aeroshell 15W50 perform better than phillips with camguard in humidity cabinets! Did you know that?

We all do what we can and hope our engines don't decide to dissintigrate one day. But I'm not convinced camguard is of value on this quest.

My opinion only of course based on observing from the sidelines.

 

OK, Pete, I'll drag out the Aviation Consumer report for you to show it, but let's see your data that shows AS 15W50 and Exxon Elite outperform Camguard/philips for rust protection.