new pilot looking to upgrade planes

[oldrockfan]

You guys who can swing the nice sportscars and airplanes... ok I admit I'm a bit jealous! I'm just an average Joe so have to look at the total cost which is why I am thinking a C, E or F mooney with mid time engine would be my best bet. rather than pick one model over the other... I am going to just look for the nicest features and condition plane I can get within my budget. I am already learning a lot from reading up on mooneys. really appreciate all who have taken the time to post up suggestions.

[ryoder]

Wait til you try to keep the Z06 and an airplane...

And the wife and the family...

And then need an OH...

It may take some inner strength, but I'm sure it can be done....?

-a-

I guess I wasn't clear. I don't think I can do all of these. But the point I was making is that I already have a paid off 2013 Corvette and if I decided to sell the Mooney and lose my hangar rent and other costs I could very easily move those expenses into a brand new Z06 with a warranty and be further ahead.

I am very concerned about large maintenance expenses and the chance that I'll end up spending 300 per hour to fly my C when all is said and done. I jumped into airplane ownership after a year of training and I probably should have started out with a partnership first. I just feel financially exposed as a sole owner.

I make pretty good money and don't have any kids so that helps but I am by no means wealthy or set.

[N601RX]

I prefer my plane to a new $30,000 vehicle every few years. I put 130 miles per day on a car so its pretty much going to be worthless in 5- 6 years. In my situation buying a new car every 5-6 years is like throwing away $5,000 year. So I currently drive a 2001 Jetta TDI with 455,000 mile that I paid $6000 for 8 years ago and fly a Mooney that is paid for.

 

I see people on here regularly comment that their plane isn't worth what they paid for it 5 years ago or that they can never get their money back out of it.  Do they feel the same way about the vehicles they own?  New  vehicle depreciation is much worse than 40 year old planes.

[par]

I prefer my plane to a new $30,000 vehicle every few years. I put 130 miles per day on a car so its pretty much going to be worthless in 5- 6 years. In my situation buying a new car every 5-6 years is like throwing away $5,000 year. So I currently drive a 2001 Jetta TDI with 455,000 mile that I paid $6000 for 8 years ago and fly a Mooney that is paid for.

 

I see people on here regularly comment that their plane isn't worth what they paid for it 5 years ago or that they can never get their money back out of it.  Do they feel the same way about the vehicles they own?  New  vehicle depreciation is much worse than 40 year old planes.

 

I agree with you fully. Mechanical things depreciate, that just a fact of life. The way I look at it, i'm taking a slight risk being an airplane owner and in the long run, it is not a money maker, much like the cars I own. If I end up with a $40,000 surprise along the way, i'm parting out the airplane and minimizing my loss. It makes absolutely no sense to put $40K into a $30K airplane. You are better of starting over and buying another plane at that point. Anytime I purchase a vehicle, I do so with the understanding that it will not make me any money in the long run...that lets me sleep a little easier at night.

[Marauder]

I prefer my plane to a new $30,000 vehicle every few years. I put 130 miles per day on a car so its pretty much going to be worthless in 5- 6 years. In my situation buying a new car every 5-6 years is like throwing away $5,000 year. So I currently drive a 2001 Jetta TDI with 455,000 mile that I paid $6000 for 8 years ago and fly a Mooney that is paid for.

I see people on here regularly comment that their plane isn't worth what they paid for it 5 years ago or that they can never get their money back out of it. Do they feel the same way about the vehicles they own? New vehicle depreciation is much worse than 40 year old planes.

So true. As a long time same plane Mooney owner, if I sold 2 years ago without adding anything to the panel (and not counting the operating costs), I would have doubled my initial investment.

I thought long and hard 2 years ago about whether to sell and buy something more modern, faster and prettier. I'm flying primarily on the east coast, just two of us now and most of my flights are under 500 nm. With retirement on the horizon, that may change but I have seen the utility that Bob gets out of his E during retirement and I doubt it will.

With the panel upgrade, (besides being certifiably crazy), there is no way I would get my investments back out. But at this point, I'm okay driving an old car.

[ryoder]

I bought my 2008 Corvette for 42k and traded it in for 25k five years later and moved into a 2013 for 39k. So that cost me 3k per year in depreciation. That is my hangar rent.

[rbridges]

The mooney has pretty much taken care of my sports car itch.  I sold my last sports car a few years ago.  Now I drive an F-150 pickup.  

[carusoam]

Buy and hold...

Until death do they get parted out....

Driving more than 100 miles per day takes a toll. 2 hrs per day is a huge cost. Gas and oil changes are a huge cost. 1AMU per year in interest expense (not a cash buyer?)

Good news... Most modern cars can go 200k miles between engine exchanges using mostly JiffyLube maintenance.

Hangar costs are high. Buying a house for a car is expensive too.

Are you using a new Corvette for a daily driver?

[gsxrpilot]

The mooney has pretty much taken care of my sports car itch.  I sold my last sports car a few years ago.  Now I drive an F-150 pickup.  

I agree... I had a string of sports cars and fast motorcycles. But I was always looking over my shoulder and the yearly budget for traffic fines and the accompanying electronic gadgets to avoid them, was significant.  The Mooney has done away with all of that. Now a Tacoma with 200K miles on it is just fine. It's paid off and so is the Mooney. 

[rbridges]

I agree... I had a string of sports cars and fast motorcycles. But I was always looking over my shoulder and the yearly budget for traffic fines and the accompanying electronic gadgets to avoid them, was significant.  The Mooney has done away with all of that. Now a Tacoma with 200K miles on it is just fine. It's paid off and so is the Mooney. 

 

No kidding.  Driving a sports the way it was meant can get pricey on public roads.  

[Hank]

My 03 (Ford) Ranger is paid for; so is my 1970 (Mooney) Ranger. Both should have much life remaining. Annual finishing next week will cost more than I've spent on either before, except for tank reseal. The joys of moving!

[bonal]

Everything but the house is paid for and that will come in time, I still have too many cause there is always DMV and insurrance to keep on top of my problem is I HATE selling stuff cause you have to deal with low ballers and prop heads and the like so I keep everything.

[ryoder]

Best way to deal with low ballers is to trade it in. Then you expect to get a low offer and you save on the headache and on tax. Plus even after I sold a really nice Z28 to a guy at a very low price he called me a bunch of times the next month hitting me up for help fixing the transmission he blew out at the track. Ridiculous.

[TWinter]

I owe, I owe, I owe, so off to work I go...................................  , .. Well it's not that bad, but I do owe on my home mortgage @2%, my F250 @1.5% and plane @4%. Keeping it in the bank isn't going make me a better return on my $. Why not use the banks money with low interest ?

 

On the brighter side I do own my business real estate, my business equipment and some commercial rental property.. I have no children so no college tuitions etc to save for. So instead I just feed that money to 7741M.

 

Opps, Need to recant the % on the home mortgage...hit a typo on the home rate..it's 3.2% , but still a good rate.

[ryoder]

Those interest rates are so low you might as well not accelerate them.

[bonal]

Trading in to,avoid selling means you have to purchase something means back into debt. Sadly this economy is about spending cheap money and the incentive for saving has been all but eliminated. Some people love to have / can't be happy without new stuff I'm in the if it works don't fix it category but to each his own. I have a couple of CDs that used to earn over 4.5% now they only return 1 and a quarter. We have devolved from a culture of savers to a culture of borrowers

[Tmack1]

So true if you look at the depreciation on a car versus a plane the car actually has a higher cost per operating hour that a plane and depreciates faster how many cars are worth as much or more than you payed for it 25-30 years down the road and I'm not talking about the 2% that become sought after that just pot luck

[carusoam]

Our culture has not (d)evolved...

High interest rates without a statement about cost of living increases or inflation will leave you financially troubled, just in a different way.

Saving has turned into investing...

Investing in financial instruments, not boats, cars and planes...

In the 70s, the dad bought a boat. He was so impressed when he sold it, he had made money...

Adding inflation into an honest discussion, he lost money compared to saving/investing...

Banks prefer you to borrow money. More money than you should...

Cheap money is good, if you can control how much you take...

If you can save enough money to buy the Ovation of your dreams, and it takes ten years to do so...

Wouldn't it be slightly better to borrow the cheap money and fly the O, today?

Knowing the O may be a declining asset to some extent.

Finance 101, Opportunity lost cost...?

Using the interest rate given above, the plane cost (interest spent) is less than the hangar rent...

New paint can be bought after a few years of saving on hangar costs...

How is that?

I'm an engineer, not a financial advisor...

-a-

[Hector]

I own a 1967 M20C which was in excellent condition when I purchased it 3 years ago. I have averaged a little over 100 hours per year and have loved every minute of it. After a round trip yesterday from north Florida to Patuxent River, MD and back as soon as I put my C in the hanger I again said to myself "Got to love a Mooney!" Still had 17 gallons after a 4 hour flight, meaning I burned 8.7 GPH while cruising at 142 Kts. My useful load is right at 1000 and it's typically just me and a passenger, but I've had up to 4 people and a dog in the plane (don't ask). I do owner assisted annuals which in my case it means I do all the work and my IA inspects the work and signs off. All three annuals have been under $ 1K. Keep in mind that the excellent reliability I have experienced is mostly due to the fact that my plane was in great shape having passed a good PPI with very few squawks. As others have said, given you are in Texas have Don Maxwell do your PPI to greatly minimize the chances of any costly surprises. Transition training is important, but truth be told I never had a problem with the Mooney. I was taught from day one that an airplane will land when it's ready to do so, meaning all excess energy has been dissipated. Even when my speed control has not been perfect all it means is that I floated in ground effect for a bit longer. Typically not a problem with longer runways but NOT good in short fields. Learn to fly precisely but if stuff happens DON'T force a Mooney (or any airplane) to land with excess energy.

[bonal]

Our culture has not evolved...

High interest rates without a statement about cost of living increases or inflation will leave you financially troubled, just in a different way.

Saving has turned into investing...

Investing in financial instruments, not boats, cars and planes...

In the 70s, the dad bought a boat. He was so impressed when he sold it, he had made money...

Adding inflation into an honest discussion, he lost money compared to saving/investing...

Banks prefer you to borrow money. More money than you should...

Cheap money is good, if you can control how much you take...

If you can save enough money to buy the Ovation of your dreams, and it takes ten years to do so...

Wouldn't it be slightly better to borrow the cheap money and fly the O, today?

Knowing the O may be a declining asset to some extent.

Finance 101, Opportunity lost cost...?

Using the interest rate given above, the plane cost (interest spent) is less than the hangar rent...

New paint can be bought after a few years of saving on hangar costs...

How is that?

I'm an engineer, not a financial advisor...

-a-

All good points and sometimes financing makes sence I just prefer not to owe money to anything and if you will note I said devolved not evolved. Over the years I haved borrowed for many things it feels great to make that last payment and hopefully you still have something of value.

[carusoam]

Spelling updated...

Our culture hasn't changed...

There will always be somebody rolling the dice with how much to spend.

Interest payments on a plane are less than what some people spend on cigarettes.

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

Anthony,

Does that mean that 5 years ago when I quit smoking I was supposed to buy an Ovation?

[gsxrpilot]

I don't mind borrowing to purchase, but only if I don't have to.  To quote -a- if it will take me 10 years to save up for an Ovation, buying it now and paying 1% interest doesn't make sense to me.  On the other hand, if I have the cash in hand to buy the Ovation but it's invested earning say 8%, then it makes sense to borrow at 1% to own the plane. We recently moved back home to Texas from Australia. We needed a car or two. My wife picked out a brand new Hyundai Tucson fully loaded at $30K. We had the $30K in hand, but when offered a loan at 1%, we opted to put the cash back into our investment portfolio and borrow cheap money for the car.  That's the only way I'd ever borrow.

[rbridges]

I agree with points on both sides.  Having said that, borrowing to get something now instead of waiting 10 years isn't always a bad thing IMO.  You just have to be responsible with your overall income picture.  We get older, and you can't buy back your youth.  Many pilots lose their medical as they get older.  Flying 10-15 years earlier may not be a 100% bad thing even if you have to finance it.

[carusoam]

Case study: Smoking $10 per day, or $70 per week, or $300 per month...that covers a lot of interest or a lot of hangar. $3,600 covers more than an average annual for any Mooney I owned...

Andy,

Did you feel like you got a raise?

The health care savings later on, are huge compared to the daily saving on tobacco products.

Did you feel better after you quit?

Wait til you find out how old is old when your medical is put on hold...

If you get the chance...

Consider supporting putting an end to the class III medical...

Support AOPA when the issue arises again.

Good choices are often tough to make...

No new cars at my house since 2002...

Best regards,

-a-