Thoughts on this M20F N3537N

[zx6rrider]

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=155759&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=15271962&dealerid=

 

Whats your thoughts on this aircraft/price? I know there is no GPS but if its as solid as he says, it may be a nice plane to own for many years and eventually put one in.  Looks like the previous owner was not afraid to put money into it by the upgrades and recent overhauls.

 

I've been watching the market for a little while now and this one caught my eye, so much so that I've actually kicked the idea around of looking into a loan. Does a plane like this come around often? Is this something worth pursuing? Without getting into too much detail, we put alot of our easily accessible money on our mortgage a couple months ago to recast for piece of mind so I would need to finance. 1,000/ month would be doable for loan,insurance,hangar ($150) and fuel, would that be a reasonble budget? MX cost will be basically parts as I'm an A&P and have a good friend thats an I/A. Whats a rough insurance costs, 650tt with commercial/cfi

 

Looking for any advice so feel free to say whats on your mind. Thanks

 

P.S. somone buy this thing so I can forget about it

[KSMooniac]

http://themooneyflyer.com/valuation/M20FValuation.html I get $63.5k valuation using that tool... which seems very, very high to me.  I guess the engine and recent maintenance gets a lot of credit.

 

It presents as a solid airframe with good history and engine status.  The negatives I see are:  ugly cosmetics (very subjective, but at least you can pick the upgrades), no autopilot at all, shotgun instrument layout, original 2-piece windscreen, and of course no modern GPS.  The very recent engine and prob, engine monitor, alternator conversion are all nice features.

 

I'd guess your insurance would be in the $1000-$1200 range annually.

 

Buying a great airframe is the most important task...then you can upgrade if you wish.  This one might be a great start.

[amishflyer]

New to the Mooney community so cannot say much on the aircraft. Avionics appear to be mid/low-range, but it has a low-time engine and good paint. I am in a non-equity share with my Mooney M20C and still in search of the airplane that fits most of my needs. In my 6 months of searching it is all about tradeoffs. One plane will have current upgraded avionics with autopilot and engine monitor, but a high time near TBO engine. Low time engines usually come with dated avionics. If money and budget are of no concern you can get both, but then you're usually in at around 80k plus.

 

For your monthly budget you are near spot on. I have budgeted for about $1,000 a month. Insurance as an educated guess should be around $1300/year.

 

Hope this helps.

[M20F]

Who was the MSC doing the work, how old are the bladders, how old are the shock discs, who did the engine overhaul? Those would be the big questions I would have along with just going through the log books, 337's, etc. in general. There are engine overhauls and then there are engine overhauls, make sure you check the actual sign off. Lycoming has very specific requirements for it to be classified as a major overhaul and you would be surprised sometimes that somebody for example changes everything but for whatever reason reuses some exhaust valves in which case it isn't a major even if signed off (incorrectly) as one.

[zx6rrider]

Thanks for the thoughts, I've yet to call the guy as I'm trying to make sure I'm not rushing into anything. I've been kicking this around for a week or so and thought I'd get some other educated opinions before diving in. The wife has givin me the "OK" but seems how I try not to finance a vehicle if at all possible, a plane is a big jump for me. Keep the thoughts coming, Thanks

[chrisk]

To me it looks pretty nice and the price doesn't seem out of line. Of course the devil is in the details. If I had run across this when I was looking two years ago, I would have called for sure. On the surface, I'd be happy to own this plane.

[bonal]

Looks pretty solid I would start to get closer and see what you see. Good luck.

[zx6rrider]

Thanks, I decided Ill give the guy a call in the morninig and get some more details. Hes only a couple hours away by car so that is also appealing. Bad thing is I walked right by it and peaked at it breifly when I was doing some flight training over there, wasnt seriously considering it at the time and I figured a broker would be asking a bit more.

 

Looks like only one nav indicator, shouldnt the kx155 and kx125 have nav outputs? Is it still feasable to upgrade the positive control system to an autopilot (the threads I've ran across appear to be a couple years old)

 

Whats the normal route with a broker? Call and get details, go kick the tires, look over the logs and take a flight than set up a prebuy? I guess he will probably want to see pre approval which wont be a problem.

[bonal]

I bought mine from a broker and it was being sold for family cause owner passed away. I was able to take it for a test flight and was advised I could bring any one I wanted to do the pre buy(that's another story) but the plane would not be allowed to be done elsewhere

Another thing that's not discussed much is be thorough on the title search. Overall the process was OK

[ryoder]

It seems over priced in my opinion. If I had 68 to spend I would want something newer with an autopilot and 430 and probably brand new interior. Mine isn't as nice as that one obviously but it has 2500tt and I paid 20k. I am doing a tank reseal and interior refurb and then we will see if I keep it or not. You can see mine still listed but not for sale at www.allaviations.com

[Marauder]

It seems over priced in my opinion. If I had 68 to spend I would want something newer with an autopilot and 430 and probably brand new interior. Mine isn't as nice as that one obviously but it has 2500tt and I paid 20k. I am doing a tank reseal and interior refurb and then we will see if I keep it or not. You can see mine still listed but not for sale at www.allaviations.com

Condition is everything. If the plane has been maintained and it has few or no issues the price should be higher. The thing this plane should have going for it is the hours on the engine. The big uncertainty is how long it has sat and if it was impacted by this.

[Marauder]

Thanks, I decided Ill give the guy a call in the morninig and get some more details. Hes only a couple hours away by car so that is also appealing. Bad thing is I walked right by it and peaked at it breifly when I was doing some flight training over there, wasnt seriously considering it at the time and I figured a broker would be asking a bit more.

Looks like only one nav indicator, shouldnt the kx155 and kx125 have nav outputs? Is it still feasable to upgrade the positive control system to an autopilot (the threads I've ran across appear to be a couple years old)

Whats the normal route with a broker? Call and get details, go kick the tires, look over the logs and take a flight than set up a prebuy? I guess he will probably want to see pre approval which wont be a problem.

I think the KX-125 has a built in CDI on the display. It won't do a glideslope if I recall correctly.

The PC system can be upgraded if you can find the parts to do it. I saw some recent threads where some of these components were being offered. I will let the PC owners tell you about the challenges.

I haven't bought in years, so I can't comment on the proper etiquette. I do know though that I have seen guys get burned by not doing a proper and complete pre-buy.

[ryoder]

I thought it was 68k. For 50k as a starting price it is more reasonable.

[gsxrpilot]

My question is always, "Do you really need the back seat room in the F?" Even an F isn't SUV like room in the back seat.  If a C has the back seat of a Firebird, the F has the back seat of 2-door Civic.  But you can get so much more C for your money than F.  For basically the same money, my C had 825 hours on a Factory reman engine, a 530W, HSI, Stec30/alt hold, paint, interior, speed mods, cowl, windshield, etc, etc, etc,... 

[Bob_Belville]

They've had to reduce the asking price to under $50k even though they've put $50k into the plane "recently". I suppose the main reason they could not generate any interest: no Autopilot, no WAAS GPS (or ADS-. These are very expensive deficiencies. And depending upon your mission, essentials.

 

For most buyers it would be preferable to buy a solid plane with a mid-time engine that has a STECxx and a WAAS GPS for even $75k. If you buy this plane and fly xcountry IFR you will soon be coveting features that could easily add another $50k to your "investment". (The paint and interior may also beg attention but these items are relatively inexpensive and are much less important to the utility of the plane.)

 

OTOH, if no such plane comes along folks will have to bite the bullet and pay retail for more modern avionics, A/Ps, engine monitors, weather displays.

 

And if your mission will not involve IFR or xcountry you can get into Mooney flying for a lot less than $50k.

 

Just my personal thought process, YMMV.

[Bob_Belville]

My question is always, "Do you really need the back seat room in the F?" Even an F isn't SUV like room in the back seat.  If a C has the back seat of a Firebird, the F has the back seat of 2-door Civic.  But you can get so much more C for your money than F.  For basically the same money, my C had 825 hours on a Factory reman engine, a 530W, HSI, Stec30/alt hold, paint, interior, speed mods, cowl, windshield, etc, etc, etc,... 

 

This is exactly what I was getting at in my post!   

[zx6rrider]

Talked to the sales guy today, this aircraft has a deposit on it and looks like its gone. Sounds like the previous owner had an open checkbook for maintenance. Over the past 10 years he put over 90k into it, most of the work done at Freeway airport in MD.  

 

Like any good sales man, he has another"even nicer" one hes getting ready to put on the market. Its a 69 model with better panel, 430 (non wass) electric gear, nice paint from the early 90's, and most of the Lasar speed mods. Downside is over 6000 TT, 584 on engine overhauled in 2008 (not sure who did it but he'll check). 55k. He's getting pictures tomorrow and supposed to send them to me, I'll probably start a new thread and see if anyone has any info on it. N10CH, it was a flying club in La Porte IN i believe. Not big on going through a dealer but I may check it out since its close. Its registered to him so I guess he bought it, seems odd, I  thought they usually just listed it for the sellers, maybe he got it broke for a bargain or something and is flipping it???

[zx6rrider]

As far as "needing" an F model, I dont really know but the way I see it is I can always add upgrades to the airframe, cant stretch the fuselage. My wife and I plan to start a family in the near future so having an economical plane that can handle more then two is desirable. I hate to have to sell it when the kids legs get too long. Will I realistically have it that long? I dont know but it will be one less thing to worry about if I do.

[gsxrpilot]

As far as "needing" an F model, I dont really know but the way I see it is I can always add upgrades to the airframe, cant stretch the fuselage. My wife and I plan to start a family in the near future so having an economical plane that can handle more then two is desirable. I hate to have to sell it when the kids legs get too long. Will I realistically have it that long? I dont know but it will be one less thing to worry about if I do.

 

Ok, forgive me, but I've just got to take another whack at this one :-)  I don't mean to offend your decision process at all. And by all means, do what makes you happy.  Having said that... Seriously, get the best C or maybe E that you can afford.

 

1. Unless your wife is a licensed pilot, you'll find that at least 60% of your time in the airplane will be solo. The other 39.9% of the time there might be someone in the right seat, often a friend who is excited to ride along. Someday soon you'll start a family and then maybe 5% of the time, the kid/s will be along in the back seat. Of course it will be another 12 to 15 years before they start complaining about the leg room even in a C.  And I would between now and then you might find yourself in possession of a third kid, the Mooney will have been sold and you'll be flying a Cherokee 6. So for the next 10 years or so, save the gas and enjoy the speed of a Short Body Mooney.

2. Something I learned during my search for a Mooney is that it is very poor fiscal strategy to upgrade anything beyond very minor items or the ONE thing "it's missing."  Here's an example.  I bought my Mooney with paint and interior already done, every speed mod installed, panel re-arranged into standard 6 pack, solid IFR panel anchored by a WAAS GPS and HSI.  What was it missing? It needed an engine monitor. That was a $3000 fix and done.  It will one day, need ADSB.  That's it.  The price I paid for my Mooney would buy the engine and the panel.  Everything else (the whole airplane) was included free.  There's no way to buy an airplane and upgrade it unless you don't mind selling at a loss in the neighborhood of 50% of your total investment.  You'll see Mooney's selling all day long, "Asking price $50K over $60K invested in the last 5 years."

3. Thankfully there are those who will spend the money to upgrade these old planes and are happy to walk away from $50K to $100K in investment. I don't have that kind of money to play with... yet :-)  But I'm sure the one thing everyone on this board can agree on, (and we don't agree on much), is that unless money is no object, you will always be better buying the plane the way you want it, rather than planning to upgrade it down the road.

 

I've bought and fixed up cars, motorcycles, a vintage ski boat, and a couple of houses. I made money on all of them.  Airplanes are a completely different story.  And with that, I'll step back down off the soap box. 

 

Best of luck with your search. Owning an airplane (Mooney) has been one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done.

 

Paul

 

PS - I'm happy to talk and give you all the details, numbers, pre-buy, etc on my search and purchase. PM me and I'll send you a phone number.

[chrisk]

As I recall, there were two significant differences with a "F".  Bigger fuel tanks (before bladders)  and the yellow arc was higher.  But an "E" is faster and a "C" is less money.  You, your wife, and kids will fit into any of these for at least 10 years.  Buy the nicest example you can find.

[rbridges]

I agree with Paul's second point.  The plane may be in nice shape, but it looks very stock, including the windshield.  Nothing wrong with that, but it would cost a fortune to update if you go that route.  If you like the plane as it sits, I think it's in great shape.

 

My wish list always include GPS and AP.  That's a very personal decision, but it would steer me away from this plane.  

[Matt Michael]

That's a nice plane but for that price you can do better IMHO. I bought my 66 E 1 year ago and am very glad I held out for bladders, auto pilot, 6 pack, 430... Be prepared to walk away from a lot of junk and some "almost good enough". After you've seen a bunch you'll know a good one. Mine has very light hail and imperfect paint, stock windshield and no speed mods but it's fast, in great condition, and everything works. It was a protracted and frustrating hunt but man I am SO happy with what I got.

[N601RX]

Matt,

Glad to see your enjoying it. How many hrs on it so for?

[zx6rrider]

Be honest GSXR, your trying to convince me so you can sell me your C and upgrade right?  All good points, it does have me rethinking my theory and looking at all the early models. I'm going to try and check some out that are nearby and see the difference in person. My only mooney experience was with a customers C when I worked in Virginia and I was in the front seat. I'm sure your right about the passengers, of the couple hundred hours I owned the 150, most of them were by myself.

[KSMooniac]

FWIW, my dad co-owned a C and my brother and I were crammed in the back for quite a few summer vacations when we were <12 years old.  I don't know how we packed for a family of 4 on those trips considering that my wife and I can completely fill my J model these days!  Anyway, a short body might serve you well for many years, and any Mooney is better than NO MOONEY!