M20J Demonstrated Crosswind

[Greg1]

Thanks for all the great responses to my original forum post.  It really helps to get the perspective of numerous pilots' actual experiences.

[aaronk25]

If I didn't know better, I might think someone was trying to stir-up another twelve pages of discussion, "points" and "counter-points" debating whether you should touch ANYTHING including the flap handle until you are completely off the runway ... Coming soon to a forum near you! :-) (Reference another thread)

Daver you didn't stir the pot you just kicked it!

[DirtyBird]

Hello, new poster here. I've been a partner in a 201 for 8 years now, love my dirty bird. I've been an active member on the blue board (POA) for a long time now, and decided to stop in here for a while to look around.

 

As for crosswind, I once landed in a direct 90 degree 19G26 xwind. It wasn't pretty, the first two tries resulted in go arounds, and I told my wife on downwind the third time that we'd bug out for another airport if I couldn't land. I somehow got it to stick, but it wasn't pretty and I don't know if I'd try that again. About 60mi away was a runway that was pretty much pointed directly into the wind and we'd have gone there.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard DB,

Best regards,

-a-

[bcwiseguy]

In my previous M20E, I routinely landed in 10-20 knot crosswinds with my max being a 24knot crosswind at Wiley Post airport. The 24knot crosswind took alot of concentration but it wasn't a problem. Not something I would want to do on a regular basis though.

[kelty]

I just bought my '77 J and flew her home cross country.  The 4th landing I made was in about a 15 knot direct crosswind.  The plane handled it great, rudder authority was fine.  Just have to do some of that pilot S#!T

[Shadrach]

A few months ago, I landed my F model at my home drome in about the worst winds I can remember dealing with. I landed runway 27 (7000'X150') with winds 33026G38. The calculated component was 22kts gusting 33kts.  To say this was comfortable would be a stretch. I used one pump of flaps (TO setting).  I did not have enough rudder authority to hold center line in a slip, so I crabbed down final between 30-40 degrees nose right of center line.  Once I was in ground effect, the wind was more manageable and I was able to transition to a slip, but I still drifted far enough left that the right main wheel touched down left of the center line.  I'd not recommend it as a standard practice. I'm in no hurry to do it again.

 

[wishboneash]

Handled about 30-35 kts direct x-wind at North Bend, OR in a PA-28 (Archer) with an angled approach. Probably around 15 kts in my M20J. I feel it handles x-winds better than the PA-28.

[aaronk25]

Handled about 30-35 kts direct x-wind at North Bend, OR in a PA-28 (Archer) with an angled approach. Probably around 15 kts in my M20J. I feel it handles x-winds better than the PA-28.

Landed a PA-28 on runway 20 with winds out of 250 at 37kts gusting 48kts...landed across the runway at about a 30 degree angle. Scrapped the right wing. Stupid. Worked out to about 37kts direct crosswind, the problem wasn't the 37kts as much as the varying wind velocity.

Now with about 1,000 hours in the 201, not sure where the wall is but its a lot less than the PA-28. Probably 30kts.....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DVA]

On 8/26/2014 at 6:43 PM, WardHolbrook said:

In the real world, the maximum crosswind that you can fly a Mooney (or any airplane for that matter) is a function of rudder authority. As long as you have enough rudder authority to keep the nose lined up with the runway the crosswind is very flyable and safe. If you limit the amount of flaps during crosswind landings you are able to fly the approach at a higher speed and that in turn increases the airflow over the rudder making it more effective which increases your crosswind capabilities. Now, if you're not sure of your abilities you'll need to work up to it carefully. Technique is important and things that aren't all that critical with 10 to 15 knot winds become critically important as the wind goes above 20 knots.Get with a CFI and go expand your personal envelope.

More people should strive to understand this concept. Nice job Ward!

[DonMuncy]

You can figure out cross-wind capability fairly easily, quickly, accurately and safely. Just fly down final and use rudder to align with the runway. If you can line it up, you can do it. If you can't (but almost can), it is still possible, as the wind very near the ground is usually a little lighter than 100 feet up. But the safer way is to go elsewhere if you can't line up on final.

[Yetti]

Can't find a cross wind component in my POH.  Being able to do a one main wheel landings will help increase your cross wind component.   I land half flap most of the time so no need to change that.  The most fun one was when I set up flat twice in the flare and got weathervaned with a gust.  So switched to a wing down one main wheel down for the third one and it worked fine.   Setting up a bit upwind of the centerline will help nail the centerline for that final bit of drift.

[jlunseth]

To the OP, I'll bet if you look through your manual you will see a subsection under LANDING that sets out the steps for crosswind landings.  That is telling you what you need to do when you have a strong crosswind, and it includes landing at an increased airspeed and less flaps.  My manual says 1/2 flaps but zero flaps is even better in gusty crosswinds.  This section in my manual says that half flaps applies when the crosswind component is above 12 kts., which is guess what?  The max demonstrated crosswind for my aircraft, imagine that.  So what the manual is telling you is that above 12 kts, different procedures must be followed.  It does not specify a crosswind limit for the procedures, it just makes clear that you need to apply different procedures than under the max demonstrated. 

I won't say what my max crosswind has been, I don't want anyone to think they should go out and try it, heck, I did not want to try it but it was unforecast weather at the end of a long trip and there were not a lot of better choices.  Let's just say it was a lot.  To land in a lot of crosswind requires a different technique, no flaps, high TAS in order to generate rudder authority, and practice.  I have not practiced enough lately and would not take on a high crosswind right now except out of absolute necessity.  One needs to fly the aircraft down onto the tarmac in a crab, and convert to a slip just before touchdown, upwind main first, then downwind main, then nose gear.  There will be a tendency on the part of the aircraft to skitter to the downwind side of the runway as speed bleeds off once you are on the tarmac, so best to land upwind of the center line.  Don't panic, the skitter is unavoidable in really high cross winds.

Where I live, in the upper Midwest, winds at 90 to the runway in the 15-25 kt. range are not uncommon and it just comes with the territory.  I have seen Slohawk and Cub pilots do these landings out in the Dakotas as though they are everyday.

[Guitarmaster]

If the rudder pedal is on the floor, wing down and you are drifting across the runway, you have exceeded the crosswind component of the airplane.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[SOLER]

I don't own a Mooney, yet.  I came across this thread looking to see if there was a posted crosswind limit in the POH.  I have flown, and instructed, in several aircraft in the Air Force.  Looking to purchase a Mooney, and it's windy in the places I live and hope to fly to.  Hence, my search here.  And I realize this is an old post, but just in case anyone else comes here for the same, or similar, reason, I thought I'd elaborate on crosswind limits.  Some of what has been said is accurate, some is just missing the rest of the picture.

As mentioned by at least one comment above, for an approach and landing in a crosswind, there is the wing low method.  As it was taught to me, and the way I continue to teach, is in a crosswind, you use the rudder to align the nose (to centerline, parallel to the runway) and use aileron to kill the drift.  In that order.  In effect, this is a slip.  Also keep in mind that in so doing you are introducing a lot of drag, so be prepared to add power to compensate.  Remember, for short field approaches, (usually to clear an obstacle), you slip the aircraft.  This adds a lot of drag which is why you are able to increase descent rate.  And If the wind is still strong enough when you get into the ground effect, you will be landing on the upwind main first.

Any aircraft has a limit to what it can handle in terms of crosswind, and it's irrespective of pilot's ability.  Also, it's not simply a limit of control authority.  One limit is rudder authority.  As others have said, if you are in a crosswind, and don't have enough rudder authority to align the nose, you have exceeded the limits of the aircraft.  The other is not only aileron authority, but you are limited to wingtip ground clearance.  You could be in a crosswind so strong that, even though the nose is aligned using the rudder, your wing might be so low that it contacts the ground on landing.  On a KC-135, when they put the new engines on it, the new engines were so much larger than the old ones, that the aircraft crosswind limits were reduced due to the fact that the wing low method in high crosswinds would result in the inboard engine striking the ground.

If you come in on an approach, and there is a crosswind, you step on the rudder to align the nose.  And for a second, if you have enough authority, all is well.  But if you do nothing else, the aircraft is going to drift.  So you bank into the wind.  Thus, the wing-low method.  And this might be okay, until you are close to the ground.  Remember, of the three primary control surfaces, the most effective is the rudder, followed by elevator(s), then ailerons.  So you might have enough rudder to align the nose, and you might still have enough aileron to kill the drift, but do you have enough ground clearance on the upwind wingtip?  

Flying faster.  As mentioned, flying faster gives more rudder authority, but it gives more authority on all the control surfaces.  So this only half of the equation.  The other half of this equation is if you are flying faster, you are crabbing less, and less rudder is required to actually align the nose.  And for those that just resort to flying faster, like really faster,  well, that was mentioned above, and that will just result in floating, increasing time exposed to the crappy wind you are trying to get out of!  If the above method can't be done at a no-flap approach speed, plus 1/2 of your gust factor if there is one, you have exceeded the limits.

Edited April 28 by SOLER

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, SOLER said:

I don't own a Mooney, yet.  I came across this thread looking to see if there was a posted crosswind limit in the POH.  I have flown, and instructed, in several aircraft in the Air Force.  Looking to purchase a Mooney, and it's windy in the places I live and hope to fly to.  Hence, my search here.  And I realize this is an old post, but just in case anyone else comes here for the same, or similar, reason, I thought I'd elaborate on crosswind limits.  Some of what has been said is accurate, some is just missing the rest of the picture.

As mentioned by at least one comment above, for an approach and landing in a crosswind, there is the wing low method.  As it was taught to me, and the way I continue to teach, is in a crosswind, you use the rudder to align the nose (to centerline, parallel to the runway) and use aileron to kill the drift.  In that order.  In effect, this is a slip.  Also keep in mind that in so doing you are introducing a lot of drag, so be prepared to add power to compensate.  Remember, for short field approaches, (usually to clear an obstacle), you slip the aircraft.  This adds a lot of drag which is why you are able to increase descent rate.  And If the wind is still strong enough when you get into the ground effect, you will be landing on the upwind main first.

Any aircraft has a limit to what it can handle in terms of crosswind, and it's irrespective of pilot's ability.  Also, it's not simply a limit of control authority.  One limit is rudder authority.  As others have said, if you are in a crosswind, and don't have enough rudder authority to align the nose, you have exceeded the limits of the aircraft.  The other is not only aileron authority, but you are limited to wingtip ground clearance.  You could be in a crosswind so strong that, even though the nose is aligned using the rudder, your wing might be so low that it contacts the ground on landing.  On a KC-135, when they put the new engines on it, the new engines were so much larger than the old ones, that the aircraft crosswind limits were reduced due to the fact that the wing low method in high crosswinds would result in the inboard engine striking the ground.

If you come in on an approach, and there is a crosswind, you step on the rudder to align the nose.  And for a second, if you have enough authority, all is well.  But if you do nothing else, the aircraft is going to drift.  So you bank into the wind.  Thus, the wing-low method.  And this might be okay, until you are close to the ground.  Remember, of the three primary control surfaces, the most effective is the rudder, followed by elevator(s), then ailerons.  So you might have enough rudder to align the nose, and you might still have enough aileron to kill the drift, but do you have enough ground clearance on the upwind wingtip?  

Flying faster.  As mentioned, flying faster gives more rudder authority, but it gives more authority on all the control surfaces.  So this only half of the equation.  The other half of this equation is if you are flying faster, you are crabbing less, and less rudder is required to actually align the nose.  And for those that just resort to flying faster, like really faster,  well, that was mentioned above, and that will just result in floating, increasing time exposed to the crappy wind you are trying to get out of!  If the above method can't be done at a no-flap approach speed, plus 1/2 of your gust factor if there is one, you have exceeded the limits.

Nice post! GA aircraft don’t typically have crosswind limitations other than physics, skill and sometimes luck.

[Schllc]

It’s really hard to “demonstrate” a crosswind limit because seldom is wind 90deg to the runway.  Also, as you pointed out the pilots skill level is a large factor. 
there is a fair amount of dihedral in the wing of the Mooney and I think that the level of bank required to strike the wingtip before the gear would feel so unnatural that you would abort well before you got to that point. 
In 9 years I have only had to use an alternate airport once because of cross wind.  
I found my drift corrected but was still looking at the runway through the front of the rear window, and realized there was no way I was going to be able to land there. 
the airport had no wx reporting so I don’t know what the wind was, I just knew my limits were exceeded. 
That being said, I have not flown an easier plane to land in crosswinds than the Mooney.  

[Hank]

The worst winds I've landed my Mooney in ( loaded to gross minus 3 hours' fuel burn) was at KRAP, 50° left of the runway, mid-teens gusting into the mid-20s, as a barely 200-hr pilot with just over 100 Mooney hours. 

Watching the Diamond trainer land after me made me feel a whole lot better.

My biggest fear with that strong left crosswind was the right turn to taxi back to parking . . . . No, we didn't nose over.

Most of our books just give a."demonstrated" crosswind rather than a limit. Not sure that's even in mine!

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

The worst winds I've landed my Mooney in ( loaded to gross minus 3 hours' fuel burn) was at KRAP, 50° left of the runway, mid-teens gusting into the mid-20s, as a barely 200-hr pilot with just over 100 Mooney hours. 

KRAP will teach you crosswinds, for sure.   I finished my PPL there and it was my home field from then until I finished undergraduate school (so flew there about eight years).   Been back many times with the Mooney.   

I did an organizational check ride in a C182 a couple months ago with an old salt pilot who had been a 747 captain for a decade.   We did a bunch of takeoffs and landings at a small field nearby with a pretty reasonable crosswind.   He was saying that because the 747 has so much side area that landing in a crosswind the downwind wing has much less lift and aileron authority than the upwind wing due to the blanking from the fuselage.   He indicated that as long as you know that and plan for it you're fine, but it's definitely an issue in high crosswinds.

For me there's a significant difference in crosswind behavior just between a high wing like a C182 and the Mooney.   In the C182 I have to really pay attention, because I'm so used to not worrying about it as much in the Mooney because it's nearly a non-issue.   I've landed the Mooney in pretty gnarly crosswinds quite a few times and it just never seems all that worrisome or challenging, but in the 182 you have to be on top of it.   The difference always seems really notable to me.

[PeteMc]

A couple of winters ago KFRG was working on Rwy 1/19 that was the predominant Rwy with the winter winds.  LOTS of interesting landings on 14/32 that year. 

I don't remember the numbers now, but a strong wind to begin with and even stronger gusts.  I knew it was going to be a "we'll see" approach to see if the rudder or the x-wind was going to win.  All was great right down to where I was pulling the power back and the current gust went away and I dropped and bounced.  So I got to Go Around and try it again!   (Should have logged an extra Takeoff and Landing on that one!)

 

[Fly Boomer]

23 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

All was great right down to where I was pulling the power back and the current gust went away and I dropped and bounced.  So I got to Go Around and try it again!

Back in the day, we used to say that unless you bounced as high as the tower, it didn't count.

[PT20J]

The certification basis for the M20 series is Civil Aviation Regulation 3 which states “There shall be no uncontrollable looping tendency in 90-degree cross winds up to a velocity equal to 0.2 Vso at any speed at which the aircraft may be expected to be operated upon the ground or water.” 

Aircraft delivered after 1975 generarally come with a Pilot’s Operating Handbook (POH). The POH is non-regulatory (except for the FAA-approved limitations chapter). There will not be a cross wind limitation. Instead there will be a maximum demonstrated crosswind velocity defined in the General Aviation Manufacturers Assoc. specification 1 (which defines the contents and structure of the POH) as “The demonstrated crosswind velocity is the velocity of the crosswind component for which adequate control of the airplane during takeoff and landing was actually demonstrated during certification tests. The value shown may or may not be limiting. (Whether or not the value shown is limiting should be stated.)”

The M20J POH lists a relatively low demonstrated cross wind velocity of 11 kts. I asked Bob Kromer (former Mooney test pilot) and he said that he had personally tested a M20J to a 18 kt, 90 degree cross wind. But, Mooney has always been conservative to account for the skill level of the average pilot. Most pilots don’t practice crosswinds often and Mooneys tend to float. Higher approach speeds to perhaps compensate for gusts increase the float and it is during the float that the inexperienced pilot has ample opportunity to lose control.

The 1996 M20J POH contains the following advice

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Higher approach speeds to perhaps compensate for gusts increase the float and it is during the float that the inexperienced pilot has ample opportunity to lose control.

Higher speeds are great on final, but you still have to stop the plane from flying at some point.  

And I'm guessing the no flaps in the higher winds is because of the greater crab angle that can disrupt the airflow over the elevator & tail if the flaps are down.  

 

Edited April 29 by PeteMc

[PT20J]

46 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Higher speeds are great on final, but you still have to stop the plane from flying at some point.  

And I'm guessing the no flaps in the higher winds is because of the greater crab angle that can disrupt the airflow over the elevator & tail if the flaps are down.  

 

It’s because the airplane sits on the ground at a positive angle of attack, so it’s light on the gear at landing speed. The flaps increase the effective angle of attack and exacerbate the effect. That’s why a lot of us raise the flaps after touchdown.

 

[Shadrach]

44 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Higher speeds are great on final, but you still have to stop the plane from flying at some point.  

And I'm guessing the no flaps in the higher winds is because of the greater crab angle that can disrupt the airflow over the elevator & tail if the flaps are down.  

 

I know this phenomenon is real for some Mooney airframes, but try as I may, I have never been able induce a noticeable decrease in elevator or rudder authority with any combination of flaps and or slip.

I used to be a reduced flaps, increased approach speed and slip into the wind on final kind of guy. After decades of Mooney flying my preference is to use full flaps in all but the most violent conditions. I almost always crab all the way to the flare and transition to slip for touchdown. Then flaps up ASAP.  I know that many Mooneys have come to grief from pattern stalls though personally, I have never seen one. I have personally seen the aftermath of at least four Mooney RLOCs (luckily non were mine) due to bringing excess energy into the runway environment.