OP ED-"Little Timmy Wants to Know Why Nobody Likes Airplanes Anymore?

[AndyFromCB]

That may work as well. Lord knows the trillion dollars we have spent since Nixon declared a war on drugs hasn't worked one iota.

 

It worked as intended. 4th amendment does not exist anymore, banking secrecy is gone, IRS has unlimited power, many a federal agency has been created, black population continues to be subjugated, etc, etc, etc. It's working exactly as intended.

[AndyFromCB]

The quote was:

 

Criminals are responsible for more homicide and death due to fire arms than law abiding guns owners.

 

Most gun deaths are self inflicted - 20k of the 30k, or 2 out of 3 gun deaths in America. On its face, this statistic disproves the statement that "criminals are responsible for more homicide and death". If we exclude suicides and accidental deaths, you are then talking about 10k deaths per year due to firearms fired intentionally, which, whether fired by a criminal or a "law abiding" gun owner is still, even in Florida, will result in the shooter being charged with a crime, even if there are defenses for it.

 

So essentially the solution you're proposing will solve nothing because it's hard to punish the victims of suicide.

[AndyFromCB]

The quote was:

 

Criminals are responsible for more homicide and death due to fire arms than law abiding guns owners.

 

Most gun deaths are self inflicted - 20k of the 30k, or 2 out of 3 gun deaths in America. On its face, this statistic disproves the statement that "criminals are responsible for more homicide and death". If we exclude suicides and accidental deaths, you are then talking about 10k deaths per year due to firearms fired intentionally, which, whether fired by a criminal or a "law abiding" gun owner is still, even in Florida, will result in the shooter being charged with a crime, even if there are defenses for it.

 

Actually, here in US of A, a lot of times if it's a clear cut case you will not be charged with anything. Our DAs have a lot of discretion. 

[BorealOne]

What's your definition of a range? In most American West, 80% of the land qualifies are a legal range. Nothing I love my than popping a few hundred rounds at pop cans in national forests in WY and CO.

I think you are truly overestimating the number of accidental gun deaths that somehow would be solved by training and storage.

 

The only gun problem in US of A that I cannot think of a solution for is domestic violence.

 

I'm with you on an open definition of ranges in areas where shooting can be done safely. I live in the Canadian North - 99.9% of the land qualifies as a legal range. But most of you aren't so lucky. Try popping some cans down by Lake Manawa lately?

 

It's not just accidental gun deaths that training and storage solves - it also reduces domestic violence to a considerable degree.

 

If you have to go to down to the gun safe, take off the trigger locks, unlock the ammo can, load up and then come back to the argument in progress with your significant other, it gives you a little time to think. Not a complete solution, but better than simply reaching for whatever you're packing.

[BorealOne]

So essentially the solution you're proposing will solve nothing because it's hard to punish the victims of suicide.

 

Who said anything about punishing suicide victims? Are you in the wine cellar again?

[AndyFromCB]

30,000 annual gun deaths in the USA. Why even bring this up fellow gun owner? What is your point? What is your solution? Is what it is.

 

I simply brought it up as an example where you and John can be rational. 30K people die each year, you realize there is not much that can be done and you're not flipping and proposing that trillions be spent to save them. But some Muslim wacko with a gun/bomb makes you lose your shit. And all I am saying treat both the same: a crime, to be dealt with by either local or federal law enforcement. CIA and drones and limited strikes can deal with them abroad. Us losing our shit is exactly what they want. 

[John Pleisse]

Ok, axioms away. Let's start with the facts and arguments as you've stated them:

 

1.  Possibly, depending on what you are counting. If all arms (military and civilian), true. Otherwise, there are 90 guns/100 people in USA. Slightly more than Serbia, and way in front of Yemen and Switzerland.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

2. Yes, you have a constitutional right to own guns. But it's a constitution, not a law of nature. And as the Aussie comic notes, it's an amendment.

 

3. This thread is irrefutable evidence of the deficiencies in the US political process. It comes down to the simple fact that your politicians and courts are too chicken do do anything about the fact that the current interpretations of the 2nd amendment are big on rights, but not so much on responsibilities.

 

4. I don't need to be educated on guns. Like I said above, I'm a serious hunter and gun enthusiast. I also put myself through law school as a paramedic, and worked as a medical volunteer in hospitals, clinics and orphanages in West Africa in the middle of some nasty civil wars/genocides in the 90's. I know what they are for, how they are used, and what kind of damage they can do.

 

5. More American exceptionalism. Keep on believing it, but I'm not buying.

 

6. Not sure what the point is. You have a volunteer army. You have veterans. So? Some Western countries have compulsory service with standing militias. Should we be talking about the Swiss or the Israelis here? What point am I missing?

 

7. Not following the logic here - I'm guessing that most people would say that having lots of civilian guns but a low number of firearms-related deaths would be a mark of civilization and development, not the other way around. Norway and Finland - lots of guns, few gun-related deaths (almost all suicides, negligible homicides)  Also, you appear to be contradicting your evidence in point 1 (USA #1 in guns) to say that Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Jamaica and especially, Brazil "have 4 to 5 times the number of guns as Americans and gun related deaths". Statistically, Mexico is pretty close to the US in terms of firearms deaths/100 000 (11.7 to 10.3) while Brazil has twice the gun related deaths. You all have a long way to go to beat Honduras or Venezuela though. And yeah, call me arrogant, but I call those kinds of statistics evidence of some serious "underdevelopment".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

8. Are we to assume that the problem is legislation ("no law would ever work"), or just the ineffective, politically compromised kind? ("bad laws don't work). I think it's the latter. Most Western countries have pretty effective firearms legislation. You guys don't. 

 

9. "Frenzy" and "firearms" are two words that should never be in the same sentence.

 

10. Bullshit, and you know it. Statistics don't support that statement.

 

11. Are you saying "we can't change" or "we won't change"?

 

Ok. Now on to responsible solutions. Keep your 310M guns. But keep them locked up. No one should be packing a gun in the places where most of us live and work unless they are trained and on duty. Impose serious criminal sanctions for firearms unsafely stored, for unlawful carry (i.e. anywhere but on duty, to/from a range, or into the field during an open hunting season) or unlawful sale. Buy back the guns that people don't want or need. Impose some basic safety and competency qualifications for range membership and hunting licenses to ensure that people who do want to use guns have the skills to do it safely.

 

Radical stuff, I know. 

 

1) You took the bait...I said "unique" not exceptional. To do so usurps the constitution. 

2) And .310 and smaller will lead to what? Another law, when statistics remain convenient?

3) Storage, transport and unlawful carry laws exist in 49 of of 50 states. I am supposing you knew this before suggesting it.

4) Rigorous safety and qualification laws exist in all states to purchase or possess a handgun

5) Gun buy backs? Empty moral symbolism that doesn't put a dent in the problem....oh, and they cost money...lots of it.

 

 

I find it not only remarkable that you would suggest these impositions to gun owners, but you neglect to offer a solution to the problem. And as a gun owner with Canadian freedoms, you, yourself refuse the obvious. You have offered solutions for misfire deaths, garden variety suicide and a splash of domestic violence. All suggestions that most law abiding gun owners here in the states have in place. Did you assume the NRA is just a lobbying arm and void of responsible mission?

 

No Bo......let's talk about major urban centers, let's talk about criminality, let's talk about ethnic on ethnic gun violence, let's talk about gangs, let's talk about illegal gun importation, let's talk about liberal cities and municipalities that won't allow citizens conceal carry permits, but indeed will make special exceptions for former asshole cops and political elite, let's talk about interstate purchase, let's talk about providing more protection for our children with armed guards (after all, we have guns to protect armored cars), let's talk about mandatory felony legislation for for gun use in the commission of a crime, let's talk about mandatory capital punishment for mass murder, let's talk about state funded gun education in public schools, let's talk about reform of our lobbying process........and? How about background checks for psychotic neighbors. Any idea's?

 

I would find this more interesting than a weekend gun course at the Izaak Walton League.

[AndyFromCB]

I'm with you on an open definition of ranges in areas where shooting can be done safely. I live in the Canadian North - 99.9% of the land qualifies as a legal range. But most of you aren't so lucky. Try popping some cans down by Lake Manawa lately?

 

It's not just accidental gun deaths that training and storage solves - it also reduces domestic violence to a considerable degree.

 

If you have to go to down to the gun safe, take off the trigger locks, unlock the ammo can, load up and then come back to the argument in progress with your significant other, it gives you a little time to think. Not a complete solution, but better than simply reaching for whatever you're packing.

 

Actually, I have, to answer your question ;-) The river is not in the city limits and we've been known to bring clay thrower on the boat ;-) Buddy owns some land by the river too. Many a beer have drunk there and many a .45 round has been popped. God Bless the USA.

[AndyFromCB]

let's talk about mandatory capital punishment for mass murder

 

Not very Catholic of you. Anyways, the solutions you're proposing are just more laws, won't solve anything. Our prisons are already packed. Like I said before, legalize drugs and actually eliminate severe prison sentences and the scarlet letter of felony for life and you'll eliminate a ton of gun violence. Less is more.

 

Automatic capital punishment for mentally ill people solves jack shit.

 

What illegal gun importation? Into US of A? Funny.

[John Pleisse]

I hope Bo and I are looking at the same Wiki.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[carusoam]

In your ideal country, what do you do with http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

The bad guys were armed with sharpened screw drivers.

The scene was an NYC subway.

The time was early 80s.

Let's start with flyboy...

I don't think the gentleman in question was Catholic, if that matters...

[John Pleisse]

Not very Catholic of you. Anyways, the solutions you're proposing are just more laws, won't solve anything. Our prisons are already packed. Like I said before, legalize drugs and actually eliminate severe prison sentences and the scarlet letter of felony for life and you'll eliminate a ton of gun violence. Less is more.

 

Automatic capital punishment for mentally ill people solves jack shit.

 

What illegal gun importation? Into US of A? Funny.

 

I think "mass" murder is beyond any spiritual levity that should be afforded to a human being. Remember, it is an eye for and eye..... not an eye for 23 eyes. My humble sin.

[AndyFromCB]

I think "mass" murder is beyond any spiritual levity that should be afforded to a human being. Remember, it is an eye for and eye..... not an eye for 23 eyes. My humble sin.

 

You can do better, John. We have the capacity to keep them medicated and locked up forever, if truly insane…Executing someone like that makes us animals no different than the jackasses from the middle east…It deters no one, at least not the insane and they will get to be in front of the Lord soon enough.

[BorealOne]

....let's talk about major urban centers, let's talk about criminality, let's talk about ethnic on ethnic gun violence, let's talk about gangs, let's talk about illegal gun importation, let's talk about liberal cities and municipalities that won't allow citizens conceal carry permits, but indeed will make special exceptions for former asshole cops and political elite, let's talk about interstate purchase, let's talk about providing more protection for our children with armed guards (after all, we have guns to protect armored cars), let's talk about mandatory felony legislation for for gun use in the commission of a crime, let's talk about mandatory capital punishment for mass murder, let's talk about state funded gun education in public schools, let's talk about reform of our lobbying process........and? How about background checks for psychotic neighbors. Any idea's?

 

I would find this more interesting than a weekend gun course at the Izaak Walton League.

 

Alright - let's do that. And let's do it with some seriousness. I'm all about a serious crackdown on unlawful gun possession and use, but especially in the commission of a crime. I'm also about protecting neighbourhoods, streets and workplaces from gun violence. There's whole range of things that can be done to address that, but let's first dispense with the one argument that seems to be top of mind for most good people who want to carry: the belief that "they can make a difference."

 

I call bullshit on that argument in all its forms. For Joe Citizen, defensive carry is a cowboy myth. Most of us shoot like shit under stress. It takes ongoing practice and thousands of rounds/year to build combat-effective handgun skills, and most civilians just don't have the time to do it right. Take me for example, I'm an IPSC (USPSA) "B" classified handgun shooter - which means that I can get my hits 60-75% of the time in match conditions. This means while running a course on the clock, shooting on the move at paper or steel targets (often around obstacles or under cover). Points are for speed and accuracy, and the courses of fire typically require multiple magazine changes. With training and practice I've developed better-than-average civilian gun-owner skills. But I have no illusions of being able to do anywhere as well while under fire or at live targets. That's a whole different set of skills as anyone who's done it for real will tell you.

 

Just as one illustration of my point, TTAG simulated the Charie Hedbo attack with results familiar to anyone familiar with firearms or tactics. Attackers, choosing the time and place of their attack, easily overpowered armed civilian defenders. Joe Citizen, armed or not, ends up just as dead when surprised and under stress.

 

[AndyFromCB]

Alright - let's do that. And let's do it with some seriousness. I'm all about a serious crackdown on unlawful gun possession and use, but especially in the commission of a crime. I'm also about protecting neighbourhoods, streets and workplaces from gun violence. There's whole range of things that can be done to address that, but let's first dispense with the one argument that seems to be top of mind for most good people who want to carry: the belief that "they can make a difference."

 

I call bullshit on that argument in all its forms. For Joe Citizen, defensive carry is a cowboy myth. Most of us shoot like shit under stress. It takes ongoing practice and thousands of rounds/year to build combat-effective handgun skills, and most civilians just don't have the time to do it right. Take me for example, I'm an IPSC (USPSA) "B" classified handgun shooter - which means that I can get my hits 60-75% of the time in match conditions. This means while running a course on the clock, shooting on the move at paper or steel targets (often around obstacles or under cover). Points are for speed and accuracy, and the courses of fire typically require multiple magazine changes. With training and practice I've developed better-than-average civilian gun-owner skills. But I have no illusions of being able to do anywhere as well while under fire or at live targets. That's a whole different set of skills as anyone who's done it for real will tell you.

 

Just as one illustration of my point, TTAG simulated the Charie Hedbo attack with results familiar to anyone familiar with firearms or tactics. Attackers, choosing the time and place of their attack, easily overpowered armed civilian defenders. Joe Citizen, armed or not, ends up just as dead when surprised and under stress.

 

Not even remotely realistic. I understand nobody in the first room making it out alive, if I hear shots outside of my office, I'm ducking behind my desk, dropping on the ground out of sight and shooting from below the desk where I'm not instantly visible, hence gaining my element of surprise. Once they fire the first set of shots, they lost their element of surprise. Why are the supposedly trained defender shooters still standing behind walls instead of being on the ground with pistols pointing at the entry way presenting minimum target opportunity and regaining an element of surprise. You don't stand a chance running against a rifle.

 

Another point about the video making it rather unconvincing about your argument is that fact that the terrorists seem to have unlimited lives. One died in the first room and after being fired upon, the surviving one is most likely not in the clearest state of mind either.

[John Pleisse]

It isn't the accuracy of a handgun shot...we all know how hard it is to hit a target beyond 10 meters. If a "Canadian" (family racial code word here in the states for a non indigenous ethnic minority) entered my home and I put two in the sheet rock within even ten feet of him, I'd hedge my bets he will run and not return fire....and even so, as the video proves, the intruder won't be that good of a shot. I am getting one of these next paycheck...your thoughts? 

 

http://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.com/gun-safe-microvault-gvtmv500std-gmc-p=3795?gclid=CKGykvDx58MCFQ0bgQodARIAXw

 

Kid proof, deployed in 12 sec's.

 

Again, we seem to still be on the Yellow Brick Road........no policy, just good ideas for responsible owners still.

[BorealOne]

Not even remotely realistic. I understand nobody in the first room making it out alive, if I hear shots outside of my office, I'm ducking behind my desk, dropping on the ground of sight and shooting from below the desk where I'm not instantly visible, hence gaining my element of surprise. Once they fire the first set of shots, they lost their element of surprise. Why are the supposedly trained defender shooters still standing behind walls instead of being on the ground with pistols pointing at the entry way presenting minimum target opportunity and regaining an element of surprise.

 

 

Cue the Ennio Morricone score! Sure, we all think that's what we'd do. Some of us might even do it. But most of us don't get beyond being surprised in that kind of a situation. Back to our Aussie comic and his skit - "hold on now with the murdering while I get my gun..."

 

Note that this simulation was done with trained attackers and civilian volunteers. The defenders weren't trained, beyond a basic understanding of how to operate a gun. That's pretty realistic for a Joe Civilian situation. If you have Navy SEALs in the office, your results may vary.

[John Pleisse]

You can do better, John. We have the capacity to keep them medicated and locked up forever, if truly insane…Executing someone like that makes us animals no different than the jackasses from the middle east…It deters no one, at least not the insane and they will get to be in front of the Lord soon enough.

 

Oh...absolutely... mentally ill...I am on board. Problem is, most of these mass murderers do themselves in and NGBRI is earned in due process. So, sadly, we only have CNN's word for it....a loose history and a little her se. I say, up the standard of proof in NGBRI with regard to mass capital murder cases. The bar needs to be elevated. More have killed themselves than have have survived, so there is no yardstick, again, other than the media's interpretation.

[carusoam]

I think we covered them all this evening...

(1) Religion, check.

(2) Money, check.

(3) Politics, check.

(4) Race, check.

(5) Sex, hmmm?

I enjoy the attacks on the person who makes the most sense...

But calling my Ovation brother a Canadian.

Absurd...

[Guest]

I think we covered them all this evening...

(1) Religion, check.

(2) Money, check.

(3) Politics, check.

(4) Race, check.

(5) Sex, hmmm?

I enjoy the attacks on the person who makes the most sense...

But calling my Ovation brother a Canadian.

Absurd...

I think we did cover 5, wasn't there mention of a Muslim wearing the condom provided by the Christian? I need a way to book mark this thread.

Clarence

[AndyFromCB]

Cue the Ennio Morricone score! Sure, we all think that's what we'd do. Some of us might even do it. But most of us don't get beyond being surprised in that kind of a situation. Back to our Aussie comic and his skit - "hold on now with the murdering while I get my gun..."

 

Note that this simulation was done with trained attackers and civilian volunteers. The defenders weren't trained, beyond a basic understanding of how to operate a gun. That's pretty realistic for a Joe Civilian situation. If you have Navy SEALs in the office, your results may vary.

 

I think you're underestimating how many Americans have been exposed to and shot at in the past ;-) We've got that on you, Canadians. In college, you could set your watch by the sounds of gunfire by our frat house. Usually started around 10pm. Nobody ever did as much as blink ;-) Granted, we all too drunk and/or high to care. We were right on the edge of an "ethic neighborhood". The little convince store two blocks away got robbed on fairly regular schedule. None of us ever feared for our lives. Nobody had a gun, thank God.

[AndyFromCB]

WHAT THE ^%$* HAVE I SAID THAT DESERVED THIS RESPONSE? LOOK AT MY LAST POSTS. WHAT?

 

Nothing you said. The response was to John, not you, sorry. You asked, I answered.

[BorealOne]

It isn't the accuracy of a handgun shot...we all know how hard it is to hit a target beyond 10 meters. If a "Canadian" (family racial code word here in the states for a non indigenous ethnic minority) entered my home and I put two in the sheet rock within even ten feet of him, I'd hedge my bets he will run and not return fire....

 

That'd be a losing bet. Canadians don't run. We are trained to stand in front of speeding pucks from an early age. But he would apologize for your bad aim...

 

And just a point on 12 seconds - on the range, I'm well into my second magazine by that time. I expect that your Canadian would be too. Most home defense scenarios don't make sense unless you are packing at all times. But just make sure that its a burglar, not your girlfriend, when you open up on the "noise in the bathroom".

 

The real solutions start on streets. How do you make them safer? To answer that, you need to define the problem(s) that are making them unsafe. First things first - if it's gangs, you need anti-gang strategies, which might include special police units and more stringent laws to take them out of circulation. On drugs, I'm with Andy. But if its gun violence, isn't the solution fewer guns on the streets, not more guns in everyone's hands? Make possession of an unlawfully carried firearm a go-to-jail offense. Enforce the heck out of it.

[AndyFromCB]

Cue the Ennio Morricone score! Sure, we all think that's what we'd do. Some of us might even do it. But most of us don't get beyond being surprised in that kind of a situation. Back to our Aussie comic and his skit - "hold on now with the murdering while I get my gun..."

 

Note that this simulation was done with trained attackers and civilian volunteers. The defenders weren't trained, beyond a basic understanding of how to operate a gun. That's pretty realistic for a Joe Civilian situation. If you have Navy SEALs in the office, your results may vary.

 

I'm sitting on the first floor of my house, I'm pretty sure there are at least 4 loaded firearms somewhere on this floor. I might even remember where two are off the top of my head. I wish I was joking…There are no kids in this house, ever. 

 

And I'm not even worried about "Canadians". I live surrounded by a white ghetto, CB is a shit hole. I like it. We're more into stabbings around here.

[BorealOne]

I have zero respect for anyone telling me what guns I may own. I have negative zero respect for a Canadian telling me when and where and what firearm I should be able to purchase, own and carry.

Yes, Negative zero.

So pontificate away. I am not buying any of what you are selling.

I secure my fireams in an anchored safe. Ammunition secured in a separate safe. I carry when and where I choose to carry. i don't carry to protect others.

Don't Tread On Me.

 

You established that a long time ago. Which is why I'll continue to pontificate without even an apology in your direction. Oh - and if you unlawfully carry in Canada, we'll give you 5-10 years in the fed, just for starters.