Malaysia Airlines

[Hector]

"It was an "accident" in the sense that the ship though it was under attack. -Now one could ask if that was a reasonable assumption to think the ship was under attack. For me the answer is yes, based on the history. (Although my memory is not precise, as it was years ago) Many, many, many times stronger than the WMD in Iraq arguement."

The USS Vincennes was within the territorial waters of Iran which happened to be in a war with its neighbour Iraq. I don't think they entered the waters by accident.

Clarence

As I recall, repeated radio calls were made to the Iranian flight asking them to change flight path which they ignored or did not hear. I don't think the Russian backed separatist (or maybe even Russia military personnel) gave the Malaysians the courtesy of a warning.

[Hector]

As I see it the responsibility for this tragedy rests squarely on the shoulders of the Ukrainian government.

They are reckless and irresponsible to allow civilian flights over a war zone with such callous disregard for innocent human life!

Is there a good reason the government in Kiev has not declared their airspace a Prohibited Area?

Did any of these finger pointers who suddenly popped out of the woodwork have the presence of mind to do so before this tragedy occurred?

They need to do it now before another such tragedy occurs.

Interesting logic!! So the people that actually fired the missile that killed all those people are completely blameless? DONT THINK SO.

[chrisk]

Also add to the mix that the Iranians were at the time, using those departing airliners as cover for their F-4's and F-14's: flying close formation with them and then making runs on American ships once they were close enough and unobserved. The ID bleed over may have been in part due to this. Certainly an effective tactic, but not very moral as the target ship may mistake the airliner as a fighter and shoot it down. Other countries have been known to use these tactics as well. Neither is it moral for Hamas to strap children and invalids up with suicide vests, but it's still done.

 

It is precisely because hostile aircraft can use tactics like hiding in the shadow of a commercial plane that makes them a potential threat.  --I wonder how often this technique is used by various special forces and smugglers around the world.

[flyboy0681]

It is precisely because hostile aircraft can use tactics like hiding in the shadow of a commercial plane that makes them a potential threat.  

 

Whatever happened to the shadowing theory for MLH 370? Last I heard, Lt. General McInnery said that MLH 370 shadowed a Singapore Airlines flight into Pakistan and had it on good word from Pentagon insiders that it was on the ground and that the State Department was going to make a public announcement about its whereabouts within 48 hours. He went on to say that Boeing and Rolls Royce both knew exactly where it was located. He spoke with such authority that even I started believing him.

 

That was March 18th.

[201er]

How come nobody is saying it's all a conspiracy, thst the russians faked shooting this one down because they are really just trying to amass a fleet of 777s to bid their doing?

[chrisk]

I just read that the Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels just shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in the same area as the Malaysian Airliner.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/europe/Malaysia-Airlines-jet-ukraine.html?_r=0   It should be interesting to see the rhetoric coming from the white house spin machine now. 

 

Not to get some here fired up, but for me the the evidence is pointing at a mistaken shoot down of the Malaysian Airliner.  And just for Mike, a conspiracy theory:  All the noise from the white house is a political attempt to help the Ukrainian government gain a military advantage.  i.e. make the rebels to afraid to shoot a missile  because they might look guilty.

[scottfromiowa]

Wouldn't that be a Tactic?

[DaV8or]

I think Ukraine needs to stop flying. Three fighters and two transports down. I don't think they can sustain these losses very long. Obviously, the "separatists" are well equipped. I feel bad for the downed fighter pilots. Likely they will be captured by the enemy and I doubt there is any Geneva conventions, or respect for prisoners practiced there.

[flyboy0681]

I just read that the Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels just shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in the same area as the Malaysian Airliner.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/europe/Malaysia-Airlines-jet-ukraine.html?_r=0   It should be interesting to see the rhetoric coming from the white house spin machine now. 

 

 

I must have missed something along the way. What was the WH response to the shoot down of the Malaysian flight?

[AndyFromCB]

I just read that the Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels just shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in the same area as the Malaysian Airliner.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/europe/Malaysia-Airlines-jet-ukraine.html?_r=0   It should be interesting to see the rhetoric coming from the white house spin machine now. 

 

Chris,

 

What nobody here appears to understand is that unlike Putin, we have to act within the confines on international law and rules. And it takes time. They only way to knock Putin on his ass, where the thug belongs, is not thru bellicose posturing, because that would be playing his game, but by undermining his support at home. And that takes time. We just introduced another round of sanctions and they are slowly working. Russian stock markets are down, way down. Banking system over there is breaking down and he was forced to sign a 'pretty sweet' deal with China for delivery of natural gas and since no prices were announced, to say the least, China has exploded Russia's weakness there. It was not favorable to Russia.

 

However, we cannot introduce sanctions much stronger than what the Europeans are willing do, because then we create an opportunity to play one side against the other. This is a game of chess and I still would like to believe that our chess players are much better than theirs. Remember, while the figure heads change, he game is mostly played by career foreign service, state department and CIA workers who have been playing this game for a long, long time. Give our guys some credit, so far they've won the game for last 70 years or so.

[Seth]

I just read that the Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels just shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in the same area as the Malaysian Airliner.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world/europe/Malaysia-Airlines-jet-ukraine.html?_r=0   It should be interesting to see the rhetoric coming from the white house spin machine now. 

 

Not to get some here fired up, but for me the the evidence is pointing at a mistaken shoot down of the Malaysian Airliner.  And just for Mike, a conspiracy theory:  All the noise from the white house is a political attempt to help the Ukrainian government gain a military advantage.  i.e. make the rebels to afraid to shoot a missile  because they might look guilty.

 

Unless there is news to the contrary, this was my thought process.  Shoot at the fighter jet, the jet outmaneuvers/breaks the missle lock/defeats the missile, and it continues to fly, climbs, and locks onto the next target it can find, the 777.

 

-Seth

[chrisk]

Unless there is news to the contrary, this was my thought process.  Shoot at the fighter jet, the jet outmaneuvers/breaks the missle lock/defeats the missile, and it continues to fly, climbs, and locks onto the next target it can find, the 777.

 

-Seth

 

My thoughts were more nefarious.  Either the Ukrainian  fighter jets were shadowing some of the commercial planes (or spoof them via a transponder code).  This is what happened (shadow) when the US shot down the Iranian airliner in 1988.  Your scenario is possible too.  --and it is why the wreckage on the ground is not really important in any meaningful investigation.  Now radar history of the event and the week prior, might be really useful!   Where is the cry for that info?

[flyboy0681]

My thoughts were more nefarious.  Either the Ukrainian  fighter jets were shadowing some of the commercial planes (or spoof them via a transponder code).  This is what happened (shadow) when the US shot down the Iranian airliner in 1988.  Your scenario is possible too.  --and it is why the wreckage on the ground is not really important in any meaningful investigation.  Now radar history of the event and the week prior, might be really useful!   Where is the cry for that info?

 

God I love conspiracy theories, brings out the creative side of a person.

 

FWIW, I haven't read any official evidence that the Iran Air flight was being shadowed. Why can't we just accept that it was a giant clusterfk?

[AndyFromCB]

God I love conspiracy theories, brings out the creative side of a person.

 

FWIW, I haven't read any official evidence that the Iran Air flight was being shadowed. Why can't we just accept that it was a giant clusterfk?

 

Because America, never wrong...

[chrisk]

Yes

 

Because America, never wrong...

Yes my favorite conspiracy theory is that the empty center fuel tank on TWA-800 blew up due to a spark from a sensor in the tank.  The investigation was handled by the FBI.  The CIA even produced a video explaining the whole theory.

[scottfromiowa]

May have to sell my share in the Mooney as ASSfromCB is going to take me to court and put me in the poor house...

[Piloto]

Unlike the US that produces its own natural gas Europe relies heavily on Russia for gas supply. Russia also relies on Europe for trade exchange. Sanctions against Russia does not affect the US but it can severely affect Europe more than Russia. Keep in mind that Russia trades with the rest of the world like China, Cuba, South America and others. At the end what these sanctions are doing is making it easier for the European competitors to get into the Russian market. After all there are more bananas in South America than in Europe and they are cheaper. 

 

And like the White House is making you believe the sanctions have no effect on the Russian economy. Putin is just staying put and letting Obama lead the mess. Putin can easily put a 10 cents Obama tax on the gas supply to Europe to cover the sanctions.

 

José