Non-installed shoulder harnesses.

[Mooneymite]

Can someone help me find the thread (I think it was on this forum) where "non-installed" shoulder harnesses were discussed? I used the search function, but there are too many threads containing "shoulder hareness".

These are the front seat shoulder harnesses which attach to the rear seat belts. Since they are not attached to the airframe in any way, (apparently) no log book entry is required.

Has anyone made up a set?

[Hank]

Hmmm . . . sounds interesting! Keep us informed, please.

[Mooneymite]

I found this reference on a Cessna web site:

>>>>> According to ACE-00-23.561-01 (FAA policy letter) you may install any shoulder harness in aircraft certificated before July 19, 1978 provided no welding or cutting or structural change is made to the aircraft. The harness does not need to meet any TSO, STC, and in fact does not need to meet any other aviation standard. It can be installed if it meets automotive standards.<<<<

But I can find no pictures of how people fabricted a shoulder harness anchored via the rear seat belts. I like the idea of a real, double shoulder harness better than the automotive style single "cross over" belt.

Anyone?

[rdav]

Is this what you meant? http://www.hookerharness.com/aviationquickie.php

I had a look at these before I settled on a permanent installation on my plane. It sounded like a reasonable alternative.

[Mooneymite]

Is this what you meant? http://www.hookerharness.com/aviationquickie.php

 

 

I was not aware that there was a commercial version.  Thank you for that link!

 

What I was looking for was a discussion of an owner fabricated shoulder harness that is similar to the Hooker product.  This would be valuable for those of us who might be called upon to instruct in a Mooney that has no shoulder harness.  We could just keep it in our flight bag until needed, then Voila!

[neilpilot]

I can't find the reference and don't recall the details, but I looked into the Quickie once and seem to recall that the geometry of the shoulder harness was no where near as good as the STC front shoulder belt addition in a vintage M20.  IIRC there was a better chance of internal injury using the Quickie in the event of a crash.  

 

I think that the Quickie would be better than nothing, but not as good as the real thing.  The Mooney shoulder belt kit I had installed in my 64E certainly saved my wife and I from very serious injury in the bean field back in 2012.

[chrisk]

In my previous plane, a 1964 Cessna 172, the previous owner had installed the normal Hooker Harness.  I hated the things.  They were uncomfortable to the point of not wanting to wear them.  Further, if they were tight enough to do any good, you couldn't reach the panel.   On the other hand, I put inertial reals in my Mooney and love them.  If I had vintage Mooney, I would go with front shoulder belt "Minor Change Kit" from Alpha instead. 

[Mooneymite]

A permanent, certified installation is obviously the best, but if I ride/instruct in a Mooney that has no installation, "something" portable is better than nothing.

I wish I could remember where I saw the owner fabricated shoulder harnesses. It was simple, light and very portable.

[Alan Fox]

I have a inertial setup in grey that are new and attach to the roll cage with clamps...IE no cutting ..... They are manufactured by amsafe and will save your bacon.......The harnesses that hook up to the rear seat belts will pull down on you and can cause compression fractures.....Buy a real setup , not a band aid.....

[Marauder]

I have a inertial setup in grey that are new and attach to the roll cage with clamps...IE no cutting ..... They are manufactured by amsafe and will save your bacon.......The harnesses that hook up to the rear seat belts will pull down on you and can cause compression fractures.....Buy a real setup , not a band aid.....

Alan -- can you post some pictures of them mounted in your Mooney? I flew in a Cardinal over the weekend that had an inertial reel setup that came over both shoulders. I certainly would be interested in installing a set if they can be put into a Mooney.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

I bought $9 worth of seat-belt webbing and made these:

 

Carry them in your flight bag...they'll work on a lot of different airplanes.  All the adjustments are made via the back seat belt.  

 

Disclaimer....these are definitely NOT certificated/PMA'd, or even recommended.  They are what they are....supplemental seat belts.

 

 

[Andy95W]

What a great idea for instructing in someone else's airplane! Thanks for posting!

[Guest]

I'd suggest real properly mounted belts. I am constantly amazed at how much money people will spend on the instrument panel and radios, yet cheap out on a life saver like shoulder belts.

Clarence

[Marauder]

I'd suggest real properly mounted belts. I am constantly amazed at how much money people will spend on the instrument panel and radios, yet cheap out on a life saver like shoulder belts.

Clarence

Clarence -- do you know of a manufacturer that can supply 3 point harnesses approved for our Mooneys?

[aviatoreb]

Clarence -- do you know of a manufacturer that can supply 3 point harnesses approved for our Mooneys?

 

5 pt?

[Mooneymite]

I'd suggest real properly mounted belts. I am constantly amazed at how much money people will spend on the instrument panel and radios, yet cheap out on a life saver like shoulder belts.

Clarence

A permanent installation is the real solution. However, faced with flying a plane with only lap belts, this is a portable alternative to NO upper body restraint.

I thought I was very clear that I am not advocating his as an alternative to a permanent installation. However, if you ride in, or instruct in a Mooney that doesn't have shoulder harnesses,....whatchyagoingtodo?

[Marauder]

5 pt?

I guess it is technically a 4 point harness. Don't think I have seen a 5 point one in a plane but I do know they make them for cars.

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/seatbelt_upgrades_aircraft_amsafe_hooker_alpha_aviation_bas_207809-1.html

[aviatoreb]

I guess it is technically a 4 point harness. Don't think I have seen a 5 point one in a plane but I do know they make them for cars.

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/seatbelt_upgrades_aircraft_amsafe_hooker_alpha_aviation_bas_207809-1.html

 

They should.

 

Ok - 4 point?  Does anyone make a 4 pt for us?

[cliffy]

5 point harness connects one from under the seat between the legs. Airlines use them in the cockpit. 

I have the over the shoulder type inertia and it mounts to the tubing structure with a standard AN tubing clamp and bolt. 

Had a friend dump a 172 and the only injuries were to their foreheads as they hit the instrument panel BIG cuts.

Had a Mooney go down a while back without SHs and the outcome wasn't too good. 

The "cheapie" SH from the back seat belts is a damn good idea in lieu of nothing else. One could even incorporate adjusters

on them with a little more sewing.

43.13-2A Chap 9 has a lot to say about shoulder harnesses and how to install them.  

[MB65E]

IMG_4916.JPG IMG_4923.JPG IMG_4924.JPG IMG_4922.JPGI bought $9 worth of seat-belt webbing and made these:

Carry them in your flight bag...they'll work on a lot of different airplanes. All the adjustments are made via the back seat belt.

Disclaimer....these are definitely NOT certificated/PMA'd, or even recommended. They are what they are....supplemental seat belts.

Awesome!!

-Matt

[cliffy]

moonetmite

I think the Cessna website was wrong. I reading the policy statement it says something very different than you have portrayed.

 

ACE-00-23.561-01 

[Marauder]

They should.

Ok - 4 point? Does anyone make a 4 pt for us?

Looks like Hooker in the article is the only one that makes them but for the experimental crowd. If I could install one, I would in a second.

[Guest]

Clarence -- do you know of a manufacturer that can supply 3 point harnesses approved for our Mooneys?

I have installed the Alpha system in all three of my airplanes, and designed my own fittings for the back seat of my last E model.

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

moonetmite

I think the Cessna website was wrong. I reading the policy statement it says something very different than you have portrayed.

 

ACE-00-23.561-01 

You are right, reading the whole ACE gives a different perspective than the snip from the

CPA.

The referenced policy letter addresses retrofit shoulder harnesses which will generate paperwork. The subject shoulder harnesses are attached to the aircraft in some fashion. It is a great source for those wishing to permanently install in an older aircraft. It is of interest in this topic only because it gives insight into the FAA thinking on the subject.

Non-installed shoulder harnesses would not fall under the ACE. It would be analogous to applying panel mount GPS regulations to a non-installed iPad. Two different worlds.

Once again, I am not recommending non-installed shoulder harnesses. I am not aware of any regulation which would cover their use, pro, or con. It is up to the individual pilot to determine if they are better than no upper torso restraint, or a personal hazard.

[aviatoreb]

Looks like Hooker in the article is the only one that makes them but for the experimental crowd. If I could install one, I would in a second.

 

Yeah - so ironic that certified airplanes cannot install better seat belts in the name of FAA oversight of what's safe.  I would install amsafe airbag seatbelts if i could.  I would install 5 pt if I could.  I would install 4 pt if I could. I cannot.