isaacpr7 Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Posted May 22, 2014 Status Update: I received a final report from Paul at Crossfire Mag Service and he found several issues with my mags which expains my ignition problems. I have to confess that I was super scared about the cost for the repair so I asked him to give me a ball park figure and he estimated no more than a couple of hundred dollars per mag. I think I will use and recommend this shop from now on Below is a copy of the last email they sent me: Isaac, Magneto report below. I'll be working through the weekend and will have these ready to ship back to Saturday or Monday. Regards, Paul Brevard Left mag (retard mag) S/N: D169813E Failed bench test Contacts burned Condenser failed spec test Bearings dry, minimal grease Oil in housing Right mag S/N: 8050254 Contact point clearance .003, E-gap in excess of 35 degrees Key wedged in slot at DE Coil core rusted at laminations Black block arcing internally Isaac, I'll be replacing points and condenser along with small 100% replacement items. I'll try to find a used brown distributor block to replace the black block installed in the right mag in order to keep the cost down as much as possible.
isaacpr7 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Report Posted May 23, 2014 Well my mags are healthy now and on their way back home. I am super happy with the service provided by Crossfire Magneto service. They reported the mags putting out 80K volts at 60RPM. Both mags where fixed and shipped back for $896.
isaacpr7 Posted May 24, 2014 Author Report Posted May 24, 2014 Well here's the bill: Crossfire Magneto Service, LLC 5293 Gulfstream Ct. Loveland, CO 80538 970-672-6505 www.crossfiremagneto.com May 23, 2014 WO# Ruiz-05-23-14-01 500-hr inspection for 2ea Bendix S200 series magnetos as follows: S4LSC-200, P/N 10-600614-1, S/N: D169813E Completed 500-hr inspection in accordance with Continental Ignition Systems Manual, P/N X42002-3, dated August 2011. Magneto disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled with new TCM contacts, condenser, seal, slinger, brush, and all 100% replacement parts. Bench tested magneto in accordance with Chapter 3.2 of manual and found output to meet or exceed all published minimums. This magneto is in compliance with all applicable ADs and Service Bulletins and is approved for return to service as an uninstalled part. NOTE! This magneto model is labeled as an S4LSC-200, 10-600614-1, but is configured as an S4LN-200, 10-163005-2, an earlier version of the same mag. Both are eligible for installation with no special approvals. S4LN-204, P/N: 10-163045-3, S/N: 8050254 Completed 500-hr inspection in accordance with Continental Ignition Systems Manual, P/N X42002-3, dated August 2011. Magneto disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled with new TCM contacts, condenser, seal, slinger, brush, distributor block, and all 100% replacement parts. Bench tested magneto in accordance with Chapter 3.2 of manual and found output to meet or exceed all published minimums. This magneto is in compliance with all applicable ADs and Service Bulletins and is approved for return to service as an uninstalled part. LABOR: (flat rate) $ 350.00 PARTS: 2ea 10-382585 contact $ 110.08 1ea 10-382584 contact $ 63.21 2ea 10-400572 capacitor $ 252.61 2ea 10-51678 slinger $ 20.55 2ea 10-400554 seal $ 40.69 2ea 10-160844 brush $ 14.66 2ea MS16624-2037 snapring $ 1.78 1ea 10-357424 distributor block $ 126.31 1ea 10-163374 felt strip $ 1.12 2ea 10-50752 washer $ 2.40 2ea 10-391309 nylon washer $ 8.48 2ea 10-90788-5 key $ 3.51 SUB-TOTAL: $ 995.40 FBO DISCOUNT: < $ 99.54 > TOTAL DUE: $ 895.86 THANK YOU! WE APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
isaacpr7 Posted June 18, 2014 Author Report Posted June 18, 2014 One problem gone, one more to go. I cracked open the service manual an looked at all the electrical diagrams so that I could trace all the wires and found the problem. The reason my master switch stopped working was due to a break in the wire behind the switch. As I was tracing voltage from the battery all the way through the circuits, I noticed that the switch/brakers on the left side were connected in series via jumpers. The jumper between the master switch and the landing light was broken and caused the circuit to be open. I installed a new terminal on the jumper and viola, the master switch is once again alive. Now the only issue I have to solve is the fact that I cannot get the aircraft to crank. I had the mags installed and timed to the engine when they got back from the mag shop, checked all p-leads and everything is working as advertised except that the engine will not start. My also checked for fuel all the way to the carb and it is getting fuel. The spark plugs and wires are also working. I called the mag shop to see if they could suggest something and they said to check the timing on the starting vibrator. I will have another MX check this out on Friday. Hopefully I can get my baby back in the air soon.
carusoam Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 When you say it won't crank, you mean the starter motor doesn't do anything? Or that's working, but the engine doesn't want to fire up? How's the battery? You have a C, does it take a few pumps of the throttle to prime the engine? In your own words, what is working, what is not? Your breakers are all connected to each other, but probably not in series.....? A friend of mind reminded me not to rush to get back in the air...now I share his remarks with you.... Parallel vs. Series discussion? Getting closer..., -a-
Alhall Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 If I were you I would double check the ignition switch and p lead wiring. Keep in mind p leads ground the mag to keep it from firing. When the mag switch is on both those circuits should be open. Make sure the p leads are in the correct location on the correct mag. It one point it would run on one mag. Now it will not run at all. With new mags it must be in the switch or p leads. If the mechanic installed them correctly. 1
isaacpr7 Posted June 18, 2014 Author Report Posted June 18, 2014 The starter turns tge prop but the engine will not fire up. The battery has full charge and I keep it on a trickle charger. I pump the throttle to prime it and it doesn't fire up the engine. As far as the braker/switched, those are working fine now. They are connected in parallel so my apologies for the mix up. The only thing that I need to check is the timing of the vibrator. Hopefully that's where it needs to be adjusted. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Alhall Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 I don't thank there is an adjustment on the starter vibrator. It either works or not. It could be connected wrong. If you have re-wired that part of your panel or ignition switch. You should be able to hear it working before you push in on the key to energize the starter. I still thank your problem is in the p-leads if the mags are installed correctly.
N201MKTurbo Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 Chack your P-Leads with an ohm meter. They should not be grounded when the switch is on both. Are you sure you didn't install the mags on the wrong stroke? Pull all the top plugs, hook up the ignition leads and lay them on top of the cylinders. Have someone crank the engine and see if they spark. You should only see spark on the two that are hooked to the shower of sparks. If you have someone flip the prop with the switch on both you will probably see spark on all four.
N601RX Posted June 18, 2014 Report Posted June 18, 2014 The dwell on the shower of sparks is adjustable by bending the arm slightly. This will greatly affect the intensity of the spark. You will need an current meter, adjustable spark gap and the SOS service manual. You can also adjust the point gap. It's possible your mechanic may have crossed the retard breaker p lead with the regular p lead. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8019-hard-to-start/?hl=%2Bshower+%2Bsparks
isaacpr7 Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Posted June 19, 2014 I don't thank there is an adjustment on the starter vibrator. It either works or not. It could be connected wrong. If you have re-wired that part of your panel or ignition switch. You should be able to hear it working before you push in on the key to energize the starter. I still thank your problem is in the p-leads if the mags are installed correctly. The vibrator adjustment suggestion was given to me by the mag shop. It was something about adjusting the rate at which the vibrator pulsates. I have not rewired anything on the switch and all p-lead tests check out okay. Also, when I disconnect the starter so that I can turn the key to start, I can hear the vibrator buzzing.
isaacpr7 Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Posted June 19, 2014 Chack your P-Leads with an ohm meter. They should not be grounded when the switch is on both. Are you sure you didn't install the mags on the wrong stroke? Pull all the top plugs, hook up the ignition leads and lay them on top of the cylinders. Have someone crank the engine and see if they spark. You should only see spark on the two that are hooked to the shower of sparks. If you have someone flip the prop with the switch on both you will probably see spark on all four. I checked all three (L, R, and LR) and they check out okay. With L selected on the switch, I get an open reading on the left p-lead and the right p-lead goes to ground. The opposite is true when I select R on the switch. On the both position, both p-leads remain open. I will check if the mags are installed on the right stroke as you suggested; however, I'm pretty sure they are correct because they had a mark on the case. I like your suggestion about the plugs. I will talk to my MX so that he can assist me on doing this. Thank you.
isaacpr7 Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Posted June 19, 2014 The dwell on the shower of sparks is adjustable by bending the arm slightly. This will greatly affect the intensity of the spark. You will need an current meter, adjustable spark gap and the SOS service manual. You can also adjust the point gap. It's possible your mechanic may have crossed the retard breaker p lead with the regular p lead. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8019-hard-to-start/?hl=%2Bshower+%2Bsparks Thanks for the info on adjusting the SOS; however, the p-leads on the left mag are not interchangeable. The nuts that are screwed into the mag are of different sizes so that you can't mixed them up during installation.
N601RX Posted June 19, 2014 Report Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks for the info on adjusting the SOS; however, the p-leads on the left mag are not interchangeable. The nuts that are screwed into the mag are of different sizes so that you can't mixed them up during installation. There is a chart in the SOS manual that list different mags and what the coil current should be for each. If the current is too low you will get a weak spark that will not be strong enough to crank the engine, I found this out after replacing the contacts and cap inside the SOS. If its too high it will eventually damage the coil in the mag. Don't let anyone guess at it, have the hook up a meter and spark gap and set it according to the manual.
Alhall Posted June 19, 2014 Report Posted June 19, 2014 Look at your post #17 p-lead was broken on left mag and it would run on the left. After the p-lead was repaired it would no start. I would inspect that repair. Something went wrong at that point. 1
isaacpr7 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Report Posted June 20, 2014 Latest update: I had another MX take a look at the issue and we got the mag shop on the phone. We were adviced to take a look at the vibrator and there was 12VDC going into the vibrator on the IN terminal. When checking the BO terminal on the vibrator, we would get a steady 27VAC and the reading with the switch on both, but would go to 0 when the ignition switch was placed to start. I tried to call the mag shop to ask if that was the way it was supposed to work but they were closed for the day; however, we did check for amperage and it was reading low. It is supposed to read 2.5 but we are only getting 1.4
Alhall Posted June 20, 2014 Report Posted June 20, 2014 Isaac Found this in an article on SOS you may want to check. You and others here have covered all the basic facts concerning the SOS. But I would like to add a few things I found during my troubleshooting of the problem I had. It ended up being the SOS P-lead not contacting the tang inside the mag due to either the tang was not bent forward enough or the half moon soldered on the end of the P-lead had wore itself off. Al
isaacpr7 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Report Posted June 20, 2014 Isaac Found this in an article on SOS you may want to check. You and others here have covered all the basic facts concerning the SOS. But I would like to add a few things I found during my troubleshooting of the problem I had. It ended up being the SOS P-lead not contacting the tang inside the mag due to either the tang was not bent forward enough or the half moon soldered on the end of the P-lead had wore itself off. Al Alhall, That was the first thing that the mag shop suggested so I checked the solder on the p-lead and added more. I made sure it had the minimum specified on the manual. After I did that, I could feel the p-lead pushing on the spring like it is supposed to but had no luck on firing the engine up. After I described the results of all the tests performed on the vibrator to te mag shop, they are convinced that the problem is in the shower of sparks. I ordered a new one to replace the super old raggity one currently installed. Hopefully this will cure the bug. 1
isaacpr7 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Report Posted June 28, 2014 Latest Update: I had my mx install the new SOS Vibrator today and we finally have spark; however, all we get is a loud bang. My mx thinks that it might be a timing issue but I think there might be a possibility that it can also be something else. My other mx and I tripple checked timing last time we were troubleshooting. The only thing I can think of is the timing on the vibrator itself because ot the way it is supposed to work. As you place the ignition switch to start, both mags are supposed to be grounded so that the SOS cranks at TDC. When you release the switch both mags come to life and fire at 25deg BTDC. I am also doubting the possibility of SOS timing because it is brand new and it should have been timed at the factory. What do you guys think?
yvesg Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 I am no expert but if both mags are grounded when you crank it will never fire. Yves
yvesg Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 Just re-phrasing by post above: Should have been a question more like: If both are grounded, how would it sustain firing? Yves
Hector Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 Interesting and timely discussion. First engine run today out of annual. Had a very difficult time starting engine (67 C and it usually starts easily in a couple of turns hot or cold). Finally got engine running and shortly thereafter discovered left mag was completely dead. Back to my hanger, cowl off, checked p-lead and it was a bit loose. Removed, clean, and installed again. Engine started without much difficulty this time and the left mag was alive again. Run up was absolutely normal and subsequent test flight went very well. Honestly, I don't know what got fixed other than the p-lead being slightly loose which somehow grounded the left mag? Anyway, to the poster, your symptoms were same as mine. Nearly ran the battery down trying to start, but the P-lead appeared to be the culprit in my case Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
N601RX Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 Latest Update: I had my mx install the new SOS Vibrator today and we finally have spark; however, all we get is a loud bang. My mx thinks that it might be a timing issue but I think there might be a possibility that it can also be something else. My other mx and I tripple checked timing last time we were troubleshooting. The only thing I can think of is the timing on the vibrator itself because ot the way it is supposed to work. As you place the ignition switch to start, both mags are supposed to be grounded so that the SOS cranks at TDC. When you release the switch both mags come to life and fire at 25deg BTDC. I am also doubting the possibility of SOS timing because it is brand new and it should have been timed at the factory. What do you guys think? Are you sure that it is firing on the compression stroke? The popping sounds a lot like the timing is out 1 crankshaft revolution. 1
Alhall Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 If it is backfiring when trying to start it is firing with exhaust valve open. That tells me that the left mag is out of time. I would double check both mags timing. 1
Alhall Posted June 28, 2014 Report Posted June 28, 2014 The other thing that would cause backfiring is if you have accidentally got some plug wires crossed. Al
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