Here's to the Mother ****ing FAA

[zx6rrider]

Ironic you say that, I was just kicking around the idea of finishing my CFI. I remember one case a few years back where a family was going after the instructor but don't recall many otherwise, although I haven't really looked. I figured there was a good bit of liability but have you heard of many actual law suits?

[N33GG]

The rubber doesn't meet the road until something happens, and most seriously is the case involving injuries or death.  First step the attorneys take is find out what kind of target you are for a suit.  If you don't own much, or have much to lose, they probably won't even bother.  On the other hand, if you have a high net worth, they will come at you even if only for a quick settlement out of court. 

 

I have a very good friend that is an expert witness in aviation cases, and I am familiar with many suits.  I am familiar with lots of accidents and what never really makes it to the public after the accident is long over.  There is a big game going on out there all the time.

 

Odds are, if you do everything right and are good at what you do, and very careful, everything will be OK.  On the other hand, the risk is not zero.  And if you fly enough (I used to instruct almost 100 hours per month), and jump in and out of enough different planes, with enough different students, the risk starts not being so small.  A sad example is a Mooney that went down recently.

 

Unfortunately, I make a very desirable target.  I still fly, but I don't instruct.  Mostly for concern and fairness to my family.

[N33GG]

Agreed.  Unfortunately I do not make a very desirable target.  But I wish that I did! 

 

Jim

Yes, I am very fortunate and feel that I have been very lucky.

 

But be careful what you wish for... it is truly a two edged sword.  I do miss the simpler times.

[jkhirsch]

Here is the update, at this point the airplane might as well be "totaled" take the insurance money and let the son of a bitch rot somewhere just like "the bastards" want...take some more freedom away.

 

I'm going to be in contact with AOPA Pilot Protection Services this afternoon or Monday and try to sort all of this out. I may also forward this quote to Stacey Ellis and see what he thinks about it.

 

Attached is the quote from Muncie Aviation.

 

[mooniac15u]

Muncie Aviation does good work but they are going to be on the expensive side.  Have you had anyone else provide a quote?  If you are in the midwest you might want to consider contacting Midwest Mooney in Flora, IL.  They are a smaller operation and might be able to give you a more competitive bid.

[N201MKTurbo]

It seems like you could buy a scrap elevator for a lot less then that.

 

Heck you could probably find a wing for less then the repair.

[KSMooniac]

It seems like you could buy a scrap elevator for a lot less then that.

 

Heck you could probably find a wing for less then the repair.

Agreed with this.  That quote seems really, really high.

[ArtVandelay]

Agreed with this.  That quote seems really, really high.

Assuming a $92/hr shop rate, that's 188hrs of labor.

[John Pleisse]

Are you on ferry permits to take the AC to various shops for estimates? I know of two salvage F models that may be for sale....they have been outside and out of annual for years, one may be void of corrosion, who knows. I would really try to find an salvage a/c or a repossessed a/c and part it our for your purposes. Then, hire a freelance IA. I have one here in West Virginia who has a shop, his own airstrip and is an FAA repair station. He is $65 an hour and one of the best IA's I have ever seen. He'd take this on as a winter project.

I saw him revive a totaled A36...major structural repair. The end product is in the hangar next to me and the owner has flown it 500 hours. It is straight and at book speeds.

[jkhirsch]

I'm looking for the solution which puts me back into the air fastest, I generally fly more than 150 hours per year so this is a nightmare. The only reason that it's drug on like this is because I have been all over the country since May looking for a full time job.

 

What makes me sick is that '4-8 feet of foil tape and contouring foam to the airfoil' makes the plane safe to fly in the eyes and words of Mooney engineers, but there doesn't seem to be a solution that reflects that.

 

I think the next step is to contact some of these "magic dent removal shops" and see what they have to say.

[Hank]

What do you do for a living? Education, etc.?

[jkhirsch]

I worked as a Systems Administrator and a Help Desk Manager for the past 6 years, I finished my degree in Finance and Econ last year. I'd love to work on Wall Street at some point, but it's a tough road for a Midwest kid, with a Midwest education. (Always knew I should have gone to William and Mary)

[jetdriven]

Agreed with this.  That quote seems really, really high.

That is completely off the reservation. It reminds me of a quote that shops throw out there to see if someone is stupid enough to pay 4 times the going rate. that may be a 60 hour job, but at 80$ an hour, its still only 5 grand. I think I could do it a lot faster than that.

 

Its a bullshit quote. Ask them what the 180 hours is based on.

[OR75]

Lots of coffee breaks in a 180 hours

[ArtVandelay]

That is completely off the reservation. It reminds me of a quote that shops throw out there to see if someone is stupid enough to pay 4 times the going rate. that may be a 60 hour job, but at 80$ an hour, its still only 5 grand. I think I could do it a lot faster than that.

Its a bullshit quote. Ask them what the 180 hours is based on.

Maybe they don't have experience doing this type of work or they don't want to do it?

[John Pleisse]

Two other things.....can you tag it "experimental" and get the work done under a different set of rules and once up to snuff, get it reinspected and re-certified? Just thinking out loud, here. Also, there are several great A&P schools who need specimens. The former would get you in the air quicker and the FAA off your back. You would then open an entire world of possibilities for airframe repair and restoration.

[John Pleisse]

I get that you want to shift blame and responsibility to mechanics. I don't personally agree with it and I'm incredulous, but I got it!

You haven't answered the question however. And again I only ask for the sake of education to promote safety. I'm sorry but this is important.

 

 

Here's the problem. There is an entire undertow of A&P talent who have varying tolerances for owner responsibility. Airframe squawks that need repair can be dealt with in a multi-teared process over time. I have had top notch shops turn a blind eye, knowing we'll tackle it at the next annual.......real airworthy type shit. If the wing skins and dents (I haven't seen them), control surface stuff are not the end of the world and can get repaired, that is one thing.

 

Here's what I can't get past.......the a/c was purchased, owned, inspected multiple times, sold and purchased again without a data plate. This is inexcusable and I believe the precipitating factor in enforcement action. Correct me if I am wrong.

[rockydoc]

Been reading the thread with much interest because of the experience I recently had with the FAA after the unpleasant interaction I had with Homeland Security in KNEW.  Without a doubt, the FAA is yet another example of the power over us that government has--whether it be appropriate or inappropriate.  Whether it truly be in the best interest of the pulbic or just harassment by people that use the power because they can.

 

After I politely refused to allow Homeland Security to search my aircraft without a search warrant and they brought in the dog who gave a "positive response" they used as justification to do the search without a warrant which they used to disassemble my airplane on the ramp but found nothing (because there was nothing to find) and after I politely refused to speak with them without an attorney, the Homeland Security agent, Louis Weaver, had no recourse but to let us go.

However,  when my wife and I returned to our airplane to leave three days later, I was told that an FAA inspector (a cronie of agent Weaver?) had looked around the outside of my airplane and left something on it.  What he left was a FAA Form 8620-1, which stated that he had done a "jpartial" ramp check on the airplane and found it to be unairworthy because 1) there was evidence of oil on the underbelly, a couple of cowel fasteners were missing (because they had apparently vibrated out during my flight after being there on pre-flight, 2) the pitot tube was clogged (of which there was no visible evidence of this and it had been functioning just fine during the flight), 3) he thought the propeller spinner "May Not" be the correct part (which it was), and the coup de grace, the fuel tank plackards were not totally legible!   Once the airplane was deemed unworthy by the FAA, I was not allowed to fly it without a ferry permit, or getting an AP to do authorized repairs at KNEW.

 

Now, each of you can be the judge...first, did any of those really deem the aircraft unairworthy?  But, what recourse did I have?  None!  But, as those of you who are pro government would say, "that action was in the best interest of the flying public."  I don't share that opinion.

 

On to some more relevant details of the FAA Form 8620-1. The form states that the FAA wants the owner/operator of the aircraft to complete the form and send it back to the FAA.  FYI, should the owner/operator do so, they are relinquishing jurisdiction to the FAA and anything that follows is nothing but trouble for the owner/operator.  However, when you take the time to carefully read both sides of the form and all the small print, you will see that returning the form to the FAA is purely "voluntary."  The devil is in the details, eh?  

 

In Conclusion, let me say that the FAA (and Homeland Security) are certainly out of control (yeah, I know...so what's new), there is nothing we can do about it (if the AOPA can't bridle them, what hope would we as GA pilots have of doing so, its not going to get any better because there is no accountability built into the process to hold government agents responsible.  You can't file civil rights (Sec 1982, 1983) lawsuits with any expectation of winning the.  So, as GA pilots what are out options?  I say, be very well education, know the FAR, and NEVER interact with the FAA or Homeland Security in any fashion without having an aviation attorney like John Yoder (General Counsul for the AOPA, who helped me).  Remember one thing, it is not their job to prove you innocent.  It is their job to gather information from you that can be used to prosecute you.  That's the reality of things whether you like it or not.  One more thing ic closing, it is exactly these kinds of abuse of power that drive good people to become passive-aggressive in dealing with government and to become non-compliant with regulations.

 

In closing, thanks to all of you for the points of view and information that you so freely share on this forum.  You have been invaluable to keeping my old bird flying.

 

Cheers,

 

Rocky

[flyboy0681]

Been reading the thread with much interest because of the experience I recently had with the FAA after the unpleasant interaction I had with Homeland Security in KNEW.  Without a doubt, the FAA is yet another example of the power over us that government has--whether it be appropriate or inappropriate.  Whether it truly be in the best interest of the pulbic or just harassment by people that use the power because they can.

 

After I politely refused to allow Homeland Security to search my aircraft without a search warrant and they brought in the dog who gave a "positive response" they used as justification to do the search without a warrant which they used to disassemble my airplane on the ramp but found nothing (because there was nothing to find) and after I politely refused to speak with them without an attorney, the Homeland Security agent, Louis Weaver, had no recourse but to let us go.

However,  when my wife and I returned to our airplane to leave three days later, I was told that an FAA inspector (a cronie of agent Weaver?) had looked around the outside of my airplane and left something on it.  What he left was a FAA Form 8620-1, which stated that he had done a "jpartial" ramp check on the airplane and found it to be unairworthy because 1) there was evidence of oil on the underbelly, a couple of cowel fasteners were missing (because they had apparently vibrated out during my flight after being there on pre-flight, 2) the pitot tube was clogged (of which there was no visible evidence of this and it had been functioning just fine during the flight), 3) he thought the propeller spinner "May Not" be the correct part (which it was), and the coup de grace, the fuel tank plackards were not totally legible!   Once the airplane was deemed unworthy by the FAA, I was not allowed to fly it without a ferry permit, or getting an AP to do authorized repairs at KNEW.

 

Now, each of you can be the judge...first, did any of those really deem the aircraft unairworthy?  But, what recourse did I have?  None!  But, as those of you who are pro government would say, "that action was in the best interest of the flying public."  I don't share that opinion.

 

On to some more relevant details of the FAA Form 8620-1. The form states that the FAA wants the owner/operator of the aircraft to complete the form and send it back to the FAA.  FYI, should the owner/operator do so, they are relinquishing jurisdiction to the FAA and anything that follows is nothing but trouble for the owner/operator.  However, when you take the time to carefully read both sides of the form and all the small print, you will see that returning the form to the FAA is purely "voluntary."  The devil is in the details, eh?  

 

In Conclusion, let me say that the FAA (and Homeland Security) are certainly out of control (yeah, I know...so what's new), there is nothing we can do about it (if the AOPA can't bridle them, what hope would we as GA pilots have of doing so, its not going to get any better because there is no accountability built into the process to hold government agents responsible.  You can't file civil rights (Sec 1982, 1983) lawsuits with any expectation of winning the.  So, as GA pilots what are out options?  I say, be very well education, know the FAR, and NEVER interact with the FAA or Homeland Security in any fashion without having an aviation attorney like John Yoder (General Counsul for the AOPA, who helped me).  Remember one thing, it is not their job to prove you innocent.  It is their job to gather information from you that can be used to prosecute you.  That's the reality of things whether you like it or not.  One more thing ic closing, it is exactly these kinds of abuse of power that drive good people to become passive-aggressive in dealing with government and to become non-compliant with regulations.

 

In closing, thanks to all of you for the points of view and information that you so freely share on this forum.  You have been invaluable to keeping my old bird flying.

 

Cheers,

 

Rocky

 

To me, your case appears to be an egregious case of harassment probably because you refused their requests to "stand aside" while they conduct their search, which I applaud you for. Your experience teaches us all what happens when you don't cooperate - you get screwed over royally with great malice because you dared to question their authority to take control of the situation.

 

You mentioned having an attorney by your side during these interdictions, but I'm wondering if that would only make them madder.

 

I have been fairly vocal on these abuses and am not one of those that say that it is in the best interest of the flying public (not sure anyone here at MS would say that). I decried the formation of DHS from the moment that the mega-agency announcement was made in 2002 because it was massive overreaction. What made them possibly think that consolidating 22 government agencies under one roof could benefit anyone? The sheer size of it is daunting, and when you have a government agency that large, abuses of this kind are bound to happen because there's little to no accountability. 

 

I sure wish a pilot who finds himself in a situation like this surreptitiously records the event and makes it public as I'm sure the American people would detest this kind of flagrant abuse as much as we do.

 

Again I ask, do these guys go home after these incidents, kiss their wife on the cheek and sit down to play with their kids while waiting for dinner, or do they go to their garage and clean their guns?

[bonal]

Our freedom is under attack on many fronts. The gov't and many other organizations view us as 1% types that need to be slammed for the collective good. GA is one of the last and greatest freedoms we have. Washington has gained much power by using class warfare as a way of dividing the people. These examples of gov't intrusion scare the hell out of me. I hope you can find a way to make the corrections they require. No matter what the estimate I'm sure there is quite a bit of labor that you could do if you find a shop or AP that allows it. Hang in there!

[xcrmckenna]

Seems about right...

[Tom]

But, what recourse did I have?  None!  But, as those of you who are pro government would say, "that action was in the best interest of the flying public."  I don't share that opinion.

Quite an unforunate incident. In this specific circumstance, in response to the facts related, I would replace the cowl fasteners, review oil consumption/loss issues, inspect the pitot, and if all good (i.e. you determine the airplane is safe/standard on these issues) document the same and fly home. Don't look back.

If I had more energy I'd take a few minutes to video the bottom of surrounding planes and cowlings for missing fasterners and keep this in my files.

[jkhirsch]

Does anyone have any knowledge of how the process of "totaling" a plane works through the insurance company, and if you can subsequently buy it back from them--similar to autos?

[aaronk25]

Does anyone have any knowledge of how the process of "totaling" a plane works through the insurance company, and if you can subsequently buy it back from them--similar to autos?

In my situation hull was insured for 75k and damage estimates were close to 60k and unless I was willing to sign a statement that the the max the insurance company would be held liable for in the event hidden damage is 75k, they wanted to total it.

They will want to fix it as long as there comfortable the damage won't exceed the hull value.

They will certainly give you first shot at buying it back. Typically they will tell you what the wholesale offer they received is and let you buy it for that amount.

[John Pleisse]

Insurance companies view a dinged airframe as a liability and want themselves exhumed. They are quicker to total a lower cost airframe than work with an owner.