AOA installation

[bnicolette]

Now you have gone off and done it Brett! The FAA is going read your post and there going to make it a requirement that two of them are installed because 2% of all U.S. airports have a right hand pattern!

Chris I don't know how to tell you this but I'm with the FAA and I'm here to help.   AND my airport is one of those 2%. 

[fantom]

Rip--

Sorry, but we fly Mooneys because we're frugal. Some call us 'cheap b@stards' but I prefer 'frugal.'

But I could jump on a group discount for this, especially if it can be heated.

LOL

A rose by any other name.....

All Mooney pilots are CB club members automatically, without dues of course. Some are just a bit more frugal (cheaper) than the average.

As such, I like to see a group 'deal' also.

[Marauder]

Interested, although I never considered one of these, I started researching them last night. There are more videos out there on the topic as well as an iOS App that Bendix King has out for their unit.

Oh, Peter, oh, Peter... Where are you Peter? You were asking about the value over the ASI. This video at around the 2.5 mark has a test flight in a Baron. Shows the speed of response of the AoA over the ASI.

Still not an overwhelming selling point since we should be flying stabilized approaches while controlling our airspeed. I still think the biggest advantage to GA pilots is the determination of pending stall conditions based on weight.

[Marauder]

Chris I don't know how to tell you this but I'm with the FAA and I'm here to help.

I'm sure you are! BTW -- I saw your landing video at your home airport, did you bust one of your own rules flying that left hand pattern or is your airport one of the special ones with both a right and left hand pattern?

[bnicolette]

I'm sure you are! BTW -- I saw your landing video at your home airport, did you bust one of your own rules flying that left hand pattern or is your airport one of the special ones with both a right and left hand pattern?

Well it's a controlled airport so I just do what they tell me. But because of the ridge they generally put you on the right downwind unless you ask for the other and traffic allows.

Did I hear somebody say group buy???

[RobertE]

First of all, I don't have an AOA indicator but would like and use one were I not too cheap. Maybe someday. Now my question. Much has been made of the device's help with reducing stall/spin accidents but since a stall warning device, which all our planes have, is an AOA indicator itself (but functioning only in a narrow band and then only on/off), is it not true that in all stall/spin accidents we can assume that the stall warning started blaring sometime before the stall?

[PTK]

... we can assume that the stall warning started blaring sometime before the stall?

This was my point in an earlier post when I quoted the FAA:

"The system is non-required and used in an advisory or supplementary manner. The system will not be used in lieu of the airspeed indicator or aircraft stall warning system. No operational credit may be taken for the installation, such as reduced stall speeds, reduced approach speeds, reduced takeoff or landing distances, etc.

..accuracy of indication of stall must coincide with stall horn or be conservative (indicate stall at a higher airspeed) as compared to existing stall warning devices."

On approach or in the pattern the ASI tells me all I need to know.

I prefer to fly stabilized approaches and coordinated patterns at calculated airspeeds based on my weight.

[PTK]

Interested, although I never considered one of these, I started researching them last night. There are more videos out there on the topic as well as an iOS App that Bendix King has out for their unit.Oh, Peter, oh, Peter... Where are you Peter? You were asking about the value over the ASI. This video at around the 2.5 mark has a test flight in a Baron. Shows the speed of response of the AoA over the ASI. not an overwhelming selling point since we should be flying stabilized approaches while controlling our airspeed. I still think the biggest advantage to GA pilots is the determination of pending stall conditions based on weight.

Chris, not sure what your thoughts are from that video but these are mine:

1. AOA needle is erratic whereas ASI is solid. (some may call it lagging, I call it rock solid)

2. The erratic AOA needle follows the solid and stable ASI (no surprise there since airspeeds are indeed derived from AOA)

3. Flying a stabilized approach is that much more stable and predictable with a rock solid ASI.

4. Select your proper airspeed for this approach and stick with it!

I'll say it again: Don't explore the edges of the envelope close to the ground and stay coordinated within 30 degrees of bank. On approach or in the pattern there's nothing an AOA ind can tell me that my ASI hasn't already.

What we need to be promoting is more instruction and training on basic stick and rudder skills. Not more gadgets!

[mikerocosm]

I'm sure my own stick and rudder skills are still evolving, but my airspeed needle is far from rock solid as I balance the rate of descent against my velocity, with reference to my position and worrying a little about how steep my bank angle is between base and final. I personally allow a hefty speed margin for that last turn, as I'm pretty sure it'd be a short drop into the woods below if my high-performance wing should stall.

 

I imagine that the airspeed indicator would be telling me all I needed to know IF I first knew exactly what the stall speed is on each turn I make on approach with more or less fuel on one side that the other (never the same way twice), different (each time I fly) weight distributed differently longitudinally through the aircraft, wind coming from God-knows-what angle and velocity and changing with altitude, bank angle changing constantly as I micro-adjust to line up just so, and the yoke moving back and forth in a vain attempt to keep everything steady . . . but it's never quite that clean here in Oklahoma. So in fact, I am never really sure, within five knots, of how close I am to a stall.

 

BUT, with an AOA-measuring device, I don't need to know any of that stuff to know how close I am to being in trouble. It's only measuring one thing, and the thing it's measuring tells me how close I am to a stall in simple analog terms.

 

For this reason, the AOA-indicator is the next thing I intend to add to my airplane. First, it was the shoulder harnesses, second it was the JPI 700. (If I were doing it again, I would have added the AOA indicator before the JPI, since it's a safety thing, and the JPI just helps me run things more efficiently and knowledegably.)

 

So if there's going to be a group deal (Lord knows I'm cheap . . .), count me in.

[rq3]

Any chance you would entertain a group buy price if some of us were to buy as a group?

 

There is a chance. I've run the numbers, and if you folks can order at least 10 units, I can offer a 10% discount ($355.50 each). No mods (like heat) allowed at this time, please. Also, be VERY sure your IA is OK with the install before you order! I'm expecting FAA assistance with this, but I'm not holding my breath, either. A review of FAR 43 (minor / major modifications) may be in order.

Fly Safe,

Rip

[David Mazer]

Okay, so how do you proceed with your orders?  Do you each agree on here and at a count of 10 Rip contacts the buyers or some other way?  I'm not sure how these group buys work on MooneySpace?

[Marauder]

Why don't we just put your name here and see if we get 10? I have a call out to my mechanic to see if I will have any issues installing one.

[Marauder]

Hi All. I spoke to my mechanic today and he sayshe received a letter from the FAA sometime in 2013 that stated that AOA indicators that are standalone and not integrated with any of the airplane systems, can be installed with a logbook approval. He did say that there are a few of these AOA indicators available and he will not install some of them because of concerns over quality. I have forwarded him Rip's website and he will let me know if he has any concerns.

 

If not, I'm in. I'm a sucker for a new gizmo any day!

[rq3]

Hi All. I spoke to my mechanic today and he sayshe received a letter from the FAA sometime in 2013 that stated that AOA indicators that are standalone and not integrated with any of the airplane systems, can be installed with a logbook approval. He did say that there are a few of these AOA indicators available and he will not install some of them because of concerns over quality. I have forwarded him Rip's website and he will let me know if he has any concerns.

 

If not, I'm in. I'm a sucker for a new gizmo any day!

Marauder, I would LOVE to see a copy of that letter! I suspect that it is the letter issued to Depot-Star which I copy in my installation manual, but if not it would

go a long way toward getting an AoA easily and affordably installed for every GA airplane owner who wants one.

 

Also, don't hesitate to have your mechanic call me (203-798-6622). Often a direct phone chat can not only clear up questions, but help me edit my manuals to help others in the future.

 

Regards,

Rip

[fantom]

A little more data to further confuse our resident dent :

 

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/aoa_angle_of_attack_indicator_aircraft_207950-1.html

[Marauder]

A little more data to further confuse our resident dent :

 

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/aoa_angle_of_attack_indicator_aircraft_207950-1.html

 

You're just asking for a root canal, aren't you?! 

[Marauder]

Marauder, I would LOVE to see a copy of that letter! I suspect that it is the letter issued to Depot-Star which I copy in my installation manual, but if not it would

go a long way toward getting an AoA easily and affordably installed for every GA airplane owner who wants one.

 

Also, don't hesitate to have your mechanic call me (203-798-6622). Often a direct phone chat can not only clear up questions, but help me edit my manuals to help others in the future.

 

Regards,

Rip

 

Rip,

 

I'm sure he will provide it if I ask. I believe it was sent to Repair Stations (perhaps IAs too?). Also, I just read the AvWeb article fantom that just posted. There is reference to that same letter you mention. Let me see what if I can get a copy for you tomorrow. 

[PTK]

There is a "let's jump on the bandwagon" kind of mentality and I'm real uneasy about it.

I ask you a simple question: if a pilot explores the edges of the envelope close to the ground and gets in trouble, why do you think that is? Is there some additional training that may have helped? Do you really feel another gadget in the panel will help? Do you really believe that?

Well, if you do I certainly hope you're right, because I don't.

Maybe we'll find out the answer when stall spins continue in planes with AOA ind's!

The airliner in San Francisco crashed in broad daylight on a straight in approach with an AOA ind. After that crash what was the opinion and the reaction of most on this forum?

Let me remind you in case you forgot: TRAINING DEFICIENCIES. This is what the theme on this forum was.

Why do I sense a double standard here? They had deficiencies in their training but we're somehow better? And if some feel that way (I most certainly don't) what's the reason? Is it because they put another gadget in their panel and now they're magically better?

Are some of us too quick to judge perhaps?

Here is some more reading Gary since you seem to like Avweb. Enjoy! I hope YOU don't get too confused!

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/Not-Bullish-on-AoA-Indicators-Yet-220503-1.html

[Marauder]

Peter -- I seem to remember reading somewhere after their first flight Wilbur looked over to Orville and said "Orville, don't you think we need something to know how fast we are going?" I think the response was "Nah Wilbur! Real pilots don't need gizmos".

[Marauder]

On a more serious note, nothing in aviation should stay stagnant. 

 

Problem airplanes in the Army

In 1912–1913 a series of fatal crashes of Wright aircraft bought by the U.S. Army called into question their safety and design. The death toll reached 11 by 1913, half of them in the Wright model C. All six model C Army airplanes crashed. They had a tendency to nose dive,^[110] but Orville insisted that stalls were caused by pilot error.^[111] He cooperated with the Army to equip the airplane with a rudimentary flight indicator to help the pilot avoid climbing too steeply.

 

Wikipedia

[fantom]

There is a "let's jump on the bandwagon".... Are some of us too quick to judge url]

Sure many of us are quick to judge, but few of us are as quick as you to share our unsolicited and flimsily researched opinions. As for too quickly jumping on a bandwagon that 'one of the first' loaded 20K GTN that keeps you from getting lost suggests you're on the wagon yourself. What do you find objectionable with AvWeb? Maybe the expert advice. You know; like the guys you drove off MS with your obsessive harping. love ya, dent....

[PTK]

What do you find objectionable with AvWeb? 

I don't find anything objectionable with Avweb! Never said I did!  

 

On the contrary, I think it's an awesome site with lots of expert articles that I read and learn from!

 

I simply posted one such article as you did.

[David Mazer]

Guys, I appreciate the difference of opinion.  PTK has his and most of have a different one.  Fine.

 

Personally, with no financial interest in this, I'm intersted in making sure that those of you that want what I consider a major safety item to install at what I also believe is the best price you'll find, have an opportunity to do so.  So far many of you expressed interest, we are waiting for Marauder's IA to get back to us with the FAA letter, and two have tentatively committed.

 

Who esle is interested if the FAA letter comes through?  Rip is only willing to give the 10% for a min of 10 units so 8 more are needed.

[mikerocosm]

I'm assuming that I'm already one of those two, but if not, to be perfectly clear, I'm in.

[David Mazer]

I'm assuming that I'm already one of those two, but if not, to be perfectly clear, I'm in.

That would be Marauder and mikerocosm.  Did I read that DaV8or is also in?