Real world icing advice

[RobertE]

I've been very conservative about winter flying. If the cloud is below freezing at the desired altitude I don 't enter it. But is this too conservative? Do others fly in below freezing conditions if there is an out (tops easily reached or bases comfortably above obstacles) and no preps on icing? Does it mater if the cloud is precipitating versus not?

I'd like to know how others do it.

[laytonl]

I fly in below freezing clouds routinely, provided I have a good out below the clouds, or when the tops are very low. I have found the ADDS CIP icing prediction to be very accurate and avoid areas that the CIP shows are problematic. Of course, I never fly in areas of freezing rain. I occaisionally pick up a trace of ice on climb out or descent but have never had anything worrisome. Lee

[bnicolette]

Not that this article answers your questions but it is a good precursor to any answers that may follow: http://www.ifr-magazine.com/defining_known_ice_certification_faa_ifr.html Before you even consider flying in cold clouds without icing equipment just make sure you have solid 100% for certain "outs" and understand the weather most conducive to icing.

[Cruiser]

First off, you are smart to avoid clouds (visible moisture) in below freezing temperatures. I do at all times possible. Following this practice is going to severely limit your flying options in most parts of the country.

 

Understanding icing potential in your specific area of flying is important. You should routinely check the ADDS website to develop a feel for what is forecast and what is actually being reported in the area by others (PIREPS). Find out from others (like you are asking here) what their experiences have been. Never, ever loose a deep respect for how bad icing can be/or get. 

 

If you plan a flight that has the possibility of encountering icing conditions, always confirm you have an ironclad "out". The only ironclad out I am comfortable with is warm air within my reach. i.e. above freezing temperatures at an altitude I can fly. This can include an 180° turn to get out of ice, but this is somewhat risky since it relies on weather conditions that might be changing rapidly.  

 

Some false outs can be:

1. a climb to higher altitude. You may not have the power to make it through the ice or ATC may not allow you to go there.

2. Any option that requires ATC approval. You may be delayed or not get it at all.

3. Any hopes that you can avoid icing in the clouds.

 

Finally, our M20J aircraft can continue to fly and carry a considerable amount of ice. It is not going to drop out of the sky as soon as ice is encountered, just don't stay in that environment. 

[Marauder]

Heck Brett! I need to go to Buffalo in a couple of weeks and you have me all paranoid now! In the 10 years I flew there, I can't say I ever heard of anyone being violated. And I heard plenty of "picking up a bit of ice, requesting lower". I wonder if they consider flying in those same clouds below the temp windows for rime or clear a violation.

[bnicolette]

Alright Chris.  This one will alleviate your concerns (click the link below):

 

It's okay Chris

 

No one is going to come after you unless you had some poor planning and caused a "ruckus" so just be prepared to be able to explain your thought process and planning in the event that you are called out on it and all will be well.

 

I sure didn't want to come on here and say yeah I do it all the time and it's no big deal.  Just look for this, that and the other and you'll be fine.  I don't want to read "Another Mooney Down" thread.

 

If the OP really wants to experience icing or lack thereof, then go out with another experienced flyer on a day when the bases are well above the MEA and go fly in the cold clouds.  However, I am here to tell you that no two days are the same.  There is no alternative other than having a Known Out!!!!!

 

These video's are good:

AOPA Icing encounter

[M016576]

Not that this article answers your questions but it is a good precursor to any answers that may follow:

http://www.ifr-magazine.com/defining_known_ice_certification_faa_ifr.html

Before you even consider flying in cold clouds without icing equipment just make sure you have solid 100% for certain "outs" and understand the weather most conducive to icing.

That article dates from before the 2009 update from the FAA defining their position on icing conditions and known ice. Bruce Landsberg wrote a good Op-Ed on what that 2009 statement from the FAA means to us... I don't have the link handy, but it's worth a google.

[Hondo]

Do any of you find it hard to tell ATC unable?

 

For example, it is April and you land at St Johns in NE AZ for cheap fuel.

After checking the weather, you know reports and forecasts show ice on V190 into Phoenix.

The V190 MEA is 10000 or more and the terrain is high and rugged.

V528 to Payson and Phoenix shows no ice. You file and get V528 to Phoenix.

 

When asked, you explain why you are on V528, but about halfway to Payson, ATC insists you go to V190.

 

What do you do? 

[Cruiser]

departing Colorado Springs east bound I filed for and got 9000'. Departure handed me off to Denver Center and they wanted me at 11,000' which was in broken clouds. I questioned them about ice and my concern. They told me not to worry, if I encountered any ice they would let me back down to 9,000'. Fortunately there was no ice, but I think if ATC puts you into it, they are not going to be pointing any fingers about why you are there or be uncooperative about getting you out.

[bnicolette]

That article dates from before the 2009 update from the FAA defining their position on icing conditions and known ice. Bruce Landsberg wrote a good Op-Ed on what that 2009 statement from the FAA means to us... I don't have the link handy, but it's worth a google.

 

The last legal interpretation I could find was from Jan 2009 which Bruce mentions in his write up.

[M016576]

Do any of you find it hard to tell ATC unable?

For example, it is April and you land at St Johns in NE AZ for cheap fuel.

After checking the weather, you know reports and forecasts show ice on V190 into Phoenix.

The V190 MEA is 10000 or more and the terrain is high and rugged.

V528 to Payson and Phoenix shows no ice. You file and get V528 to Phoenix.

When asked, you explain why you are on V528, but about halfway to Payson, ATC insists you go to V190.

What do you do?

Lots of ifs, ands or buts.. But- if you are VMC and can navigate the route VFR, just cancel. If you are IMC, refile your route, or use plain English to tell the controller why you don't want to use v190. Emphasise "safety of flight." I have yet to meet a controller that flat out won't work with you. "Unable" I typically use if there's no time to explain, and following their instruction would immediately cause a safety of flight concern to me and my aircraft. Typically, their's time to negotiate...

[Marauder]

Many of us who cut our IFR teeth in areas like Buffalo will tell you that "known icing" is where you find it -- and where you find it can be an interesting place. "Known icing conditions" are most of the winter. That is what is scary about what you posted. Most reasonable northern pilots have learned not to tempt fate by planning winter trips recognizing that "up or below" are better than "in". Even with that strategy, you can get snagged (super cooled water as you attempt to go through a stratus layer to VFR conditions on top or freezing rain below). And as we saw with the commuter crash there a few years ago, even the "pros" get surprised...

[N201MKTurbo]

Do any of you find it hard to tell ATC unable?

 

For example, it is April and you land at St Johns in NE AZ for cheap fuel.

After checking the weather, you know reports and forecasts show ice on V190 into Phoenix.

The V190 MEA is 10000 or more and the terrain is high and rugged.

V528 to Payson and Phoenix shows no ice. You file and get V528 to Phoenix.

 

When asked, you explain why you are on V528, but about halfway to Payson, ATC insists you go to V190.

 

What do you do? 

 

It is a pretty rare day that you couldn't make that trip VFR, but that is not what you are asking.

 

First thing to know is Phoenix approach is here for the airlines, GA flying IFR is just a nuisance to them. They are the worst on the planet. One time it was actually IFR and I needed to fly home from 57AZ (near Tucson) and for over an hour Tucson approach told me that "Phoenix is not accepting any arrivals"!!!! I finally flew home VFR in 4 miles of visibility I could barely see the ground straight down. I knew it was 4 miles because the distance between when I could see a mountain peak and when I was abeam the same mountain was 4 miles on the GPS. I flew the same route every day so I knew I wasn't going to hit the mountains.

 

Anyway... I would just tell them that you couldn't accept that routing because of icing forecasts and that you do not have deicing equipment. They don't know any better because as I said before they are only there for the airlines and they all have de-icing.

[Jimhamilton]

When ATC gives you a clearance that you are uncomfortable with for ice or any other reason simply say "unable". Do not be put in a bad situation because of intimidation of a controller. You are the PIC not them. Let ATC come up with an alternate plan that suits you.

As far as ice is concerned. If you have an "iron clad out" then fly in that envelope for your trip. If you can not than you really do not have an out. The Mooney is not to fly in icing conditions. If you are IMC and the temps are freezing and you are "not" picking up any ice you are still in icing conditions and should not be there.

The Mooney is unforgiving in ice. Please, do not plan trips into icing conditions thinking you might get lucky and get home. Eventually the odds will catch up with you. This has been proven time and time again.

[N201MKTurbo]

I know from personal experance that you need to close the ram air door if you are in the clouds. Everything you have been taught about fuel injection not icing up is wrong. The RSA-5 will get leaner and leaner until the engine quits when it gets iced up. BTW it thawed out before I got to the ground. It is very unnerving having a dead engine in the clouds.

 

Be vary carefull flying into icing conditions with a big tail wind. By the time you decide you have too much ice and it is time to turn around, you will be flying in the icing much longer on the way out.

[piperpainter]

departing Colorado Springs east bound I filed for and got 9000'. Departure handed me off to Denver Center and they wanted me at 11,000' which was in broken clouds. I questioned them about ice and my concern. They told me not to worry, if I encountered any ice they would let me back down to 9,000'. Fortunately there was no ice, but I think if ATC puts you into it, they are not going to be pointing any fingers about why you are there or be uncooperative about getting you out.

 

I've had ATC try and give me altitudes that would put me in visible moisture/clouds multiple times. Typically if you mention that you're concerned about icing and do not have de-icing they won't bug you about the altitude change unless they have to. I came over the cascades at 16,000ft one time and they wanted to start giving me lower but I told them that I would prefer to stay high up and wait to descend. I threw out my concern for icing and they let me stay. I then gave myself a tour in the clouds on the way down around the south part of the puget sound. I'd much rather stay high and fly longer than be over the cascades picking up ice with big rock clouds below!

Just like others have said "Have an out!"

[Danb]

As far as act wanting to change your flight plan yup say unable due to flying into icing conditions w/o being Fiki I have never had a problem once I made this statement they have regs to follow to...

[Seth]

I've picked up ice a few times but only once intentionally (kind of).

 

The crackling sounds is very much the ice breaking off your airplane.

 

I flew from Maryalnd to Wisconsin (Green Bay) for an October wedding in 2011, along the trip it got cooler and cooler so I kept flying lower and lower until the final phase of my trip was at 3,000 MSL, but we got there just fine.   I stayed at positive 1 degree and can tell you at times when you fly through cooler air, all of a sudden you can have ice, you can also have ice any time you are within a few degrees of 0.  I was in and out of clouds that trip but always in positive or 0 territory - originally starting at 8,000 and working my way progressively down to 3,000.  My out was to land at ALL the airports along the way, get a car, and drive.

 

In 2010 in WVA I picked up ice when flying to Lewisburg in my old F.  I noticed it when I was in IMC and themps started dropping (leaving later than I wanted).  My radio started transmitting funny/having funky reception and I know that's a sign of ice on the antennas.  I asked for lower, got lower, and pretty soon reception was good again.  Got into LWB just fine.  My out was to turn around back to warmer air or land at one of many airports along the way.

 

In 2010, I was returning from Detroit to Maryland and upon takoff to 9000 feet (again in my former F) I was climbing and hit some layers at 6,000 feet, the temps dropped to 0 during the climb and below and when I popped out around 8,200 on my way further, I had some rhyme ice on the windshield and the wings.   It sublimated off.  My out was to simply decend back to warm air or turn around and land at the point of departure a whole 5 mintues behind me.

 

In 2013, during my trip around the USA, it was late May/June and I was on my leg from Portland Oregon to Seattle, Washington.  I was above the clounds and the sun was getting lower and lower in the sky.  The weather was different than what was forecast (if you live in the pacific northwest, this is normal, I'm from the east coast) and I now had pireps of a few thousand feet thick of clouds below me before breaking clear.  It was in the mid 50s on the ground, but I knew I was going to go through visible precip below freezing.  Instead of turning around and heading back to Oregon (which i could have done fuel wise), when ATC wanted to start my decent I asked for PIREPS as to where the freezing layer was, and that I would like to stay above the coulds until I was closer to Seattle and could get below the bases.  They completely understood and my decent began about 20 miles later, and they cleared my at my discretion down pretty far.  I did not pop out until below 3000or so, but it was below freezing when I leveled off, they brought me out over the water and it was picturesque.   That's the only time I flew inentionally into icing conditions when I could have had a different out. 

 

Be careful with Icing - my Missile would be a better machine with TKS but I still LOVE it.

 

Pressurization and FIKI are two must haves in the next step up whenever that occurs - I'll keep my Missile for personal flying even then.

 

-Seth

[Marauder]

Seth -- your message reminded me of something. Make sure your alternate air door is working correctly. If that air filter gets plugged, you'll wish it is...

[201er]

Seth -- your message reminded me of something. Make sure your alternate air door is working correctly. If that air filter gets plugged, you'll wish it is...

How can you check it?

[Marauder]

How can you check it?

 

It's spring loaded. Check to see if the spring is not rusted and can be compressed.

[201er]

It's spring loaded. Check to see if the spring is not rusted and can be compressed.

Ok, now try explaining it like you're talking to an idiot. Where is it? What does it look like? How do you test it?

[piperpainter]

Tom,

They are very good about letting you do what you need in the Pacific Northwest. That is a very well known area for icing. Cold, moist air! It does get annoying though because they typically over forcast the icing conditions to be worse. There are a few times that I took off with an out and didn't get any icing at all. I also learned to call Seattle from the remote frequency and ask for PIREPS about tops, icing etc. Then I would wait for a reply back via handheld. It's sad how few pireps are given even during bad conditions. If only everyone would do a pirep about weather it could help pilots that are trying to make the go/no go decision. Often when I am on a cross country with weather conditions I give pireps every 30 minutes or so....and after a flight I can look and see a trail of PIREPS!

[Seth]

Seth -- your message reminded me of something. Make sure your alternate air door is working correctly. If that air filter gets plugged, you'll wish it is...

 

THANK YOU - Smart advice and I'll check it.

[Seth]

Ok, now try explaining it like you're talking to an idiot. Where is it? What does it look like? How do you test it?

+1  Please explain