M20F Price

[LevelWing]

I've been reading this forum a lot and searching the web trying to find out M20F pricing. I'm looking to purchase a 1967 M20F. It's got less less than half TBO (sitting around 800 or so). The avionics are pretty old and it has a KLN 89B. The owner is asking for around $47k and I'm trying to determine if this is a decent price. He did say that he would negotiate a little but not by much. The AOPA VREF calculator says it's worth about $47k and change and the Mooney calculator ( I found it on this forum) says it's worth about $48k. I'm just trying to get a better sense of what it should actually be worth. The P&I are in pretty good shape. The panel needs some work but the plane flies great.

[NotarPilot]

Assuming it's in good condition I would say $45k tops. Maybe offer $42k and go from there. It's a buyers market out there.

I'm presuming you're prepared to put a lot of money into upgrades?

[LevelWing]

Over time, yes. I don't even know where to start since there's so much. Part of that is I'm not sure if I want to upgrade from really old radios to just old radios (as in upgrading to a KX-155) or just upgrade to something new (SL 30 or something).

[Bob_Belville]

I think those price calculators tend to be a little high relative to the continuing depressed market. But if you think you will be happy to fly the plane pretty much as is you should be ok. A sale price depends as much on emotion and how motivated a seller is as on other factors such as replacement cost. 

 

OTOH, if you fly longer cross country and IFR and eventually want to have such modern "necessities" as an A/P w Alt Hld, a moving map GPS, GPSS, ADS-B I/O, a modern engine analyzer, an electronic HSI, some of the many 201 speed mods, etc. it is cheaper to hold off for a bird that has been upgraded already since all those goodies depreciate significantly relative to their cost.     

 

BTW, if you give your airplane a name like "Matilda" "Sweet Caroline" or "Susie Q" you should be prepared for a money pit. Like any other mistress, there is no end to the bangles you'll want to treat her to. 

[Seanhoya]

Keep in mind that a simple Garmin 430W upgrade will cost at least $10,000.  Any panel upgrades will be prohibitively expensive.  I paid around $48,000 for my 1968 M20G about four years ago before the market crashed. I have made quite a few upgrades to the whole plane, and paid an arm and a leg for everything.  Recently, I got the plane painted for $15,000, which was worth the awesome job I got.

 

An F model is good because you get the fuel injected engine.  Try out all avionics in flight.  Old radios may be fine (I still use a KING KX-170 - which is rock-solid), but you will definitely want to add a GPS of some sort, which will include adding a new CDI.  Consider also trading out old audio panels - this helps with overall sound quality.

[LevelWing]

The radios seemed to work fine when I flew it. The audio panel is pretty old and definitely needs to be replaced. I suppose I could replace that first and see how it sounds. I'll need a GPS but that can be upgraded a little bit down the road; for now an iPad and ForeFlight will work just fine. I just wish ForeFlight + Stratus allowed for XM radio.

[schule]

Might try to call All American Aircraft in San Antonio, TX.  They might have a nice airplane that meets your needs.  In any case Jimmy and David have a good idea what current market prices are.

 

-Mark

[Bob_Belville]

A Garmin 696 would give you XM radio and weather. Plus fine moving map GPS. Mine in wired into the radio master circuit and on a RAM mount on the upper right panel, in reach but out of the way of everything else.I suppose a used one could be had for 1 AMU or less.

[Seanhoya]

Bob - that's an awesome panel.  I don't want to know what you spent on that!  How do you like Aspen's Evolution Flight Display?

[garysuperpilot]

To give you some idea of pricing a purchased a 67f model in may for 41k. It had new paint, fresh overhaul 10smoh (was a local shop however) , new schimitar prop, and a new interior. On the minus side it had limited avionics. It only had original wing leveler, kx 155 w/ gs, mk12w/ head, dme, fuel flow totalizer, and rather old audio panel. It also had an alternate static source and backup vacuum system. Heh sounds like a lot now that I add it up but the thing many look for is GPS and full autopilot. It also came with a fresh annual, and a full fuel tank (especially helpful to check for leaks) which the seller paid for. What I have done is panel mount a 396 GPS which I bought used for $500 and yoke mount an iPad mini w/fore flight. Hope this helps, it does seem to be a great time to buy. Btw both the appraisal sites mentioned put the value of my plane near 70k. I think I got a good buy but not That good. So they are rather generous in their assessments, IMHO .

[Bob_Belville]

Bob - that's an awesome panel.  I don't want to know what you spent on that!  How do you like Aspen's Evolution Flight Display?

The Aspen and in particular GPSS is great. I wanted replace an old Narco HSI and one thing led to another. Let's just say I've spent a good bit more on improvements than I paid for this nice '66E in Feb. 2012. That's for a new panel plus Powerflow exhaust, new interior. The JPI EDM 930 is also a great and pretty reasonable item. It allowed me to get rid of the antiquated instrument cluster and get oil and fuel lines out of the cabin. 

 

FWIW, I would do it again. 

[chrisk]

I'm not that familiar with the avionics listed, but the price seems to be in the ballpark.  As others have suggested, 10% below asking may be a good place to be.  

 

Having said that, condition is everything.  If you plan on renewing the interior, paint, and a fuel tank reseal, you'll spend $30K to $40K.  Upgrade the avionics and your in for another $30K to $40K.   Sometimes it's better to spend a bit more on a plane that doesn't need all of this.

[Bob_Belville]

This might be of help...here's the formula Jimmy Garrison's worksheet uses for basic plane and improvements: 

(the figure are for my E up to the time I bought it in early 2012)

 

1966 M20E $59,480 base value - zero time AF & engine

2700 TTAF -$5,400 ($1.80/hr)

SMOH - 670 -$8,710 ($13.hr)  Adjust for SFRM $0 ( it is a factory zero time but also 12 years old)

base value sub total $45,370 (an equivalent F comes out a little higher, $5000, I think.

 

Extras:

Auto pilot - STEC 50 w Alt Hld $6,000

Prop - Scimitar $1,500 (worksheet has $1500 for a B series Hartzell)

Stormscope - WX-900 $2,000 (reconditioned 2012)

201 windshield $2,000

201 panel/glareshield $2,000

201 cowl $2,000

One Piece Belly $1,000

O&N Bladders $1,000

speed brakes $2,000

Other mods: 1)  Oil cooler relocated  2)  Mooney 201 Spinner & spinner bulkhead assys 3) Dorsal Fin Fairing 4)  Tail Root Fairing Horizontal 5)  Wheel well liner covers 6)  Wing Root Leading Edge Fairing 7)  Relocated Cleveland wheel brake assys 8)  Hinge cover on Aileron, Elevator, & Rudder assy 9)  Aileron lower gap seals 10)  Flap gap seals $2,000 ?

 

sub total $66,870 (I paid about 20% less than this value 2/2012)

 

I think Jimmy's worksheet would give the following values (not my cost) to changes since 2/2012:

Aspen PFD 1000 $8,220

GPS - GTN 750 $14,000

JPI 930 $5,340

GDL 88  - ADS-B in & out -traffic, weather $3,000

GPS 696 $1,000

Powerflow $2,500

Fine wire plugs $200

leather interior $4,000

 

total $105,130

 

Bottom line, a vintage Mooney might be worth $20,000 or over $100,000. The devil is in the details.

[jetdriven]

Nobody is going to get 100K for a vintage mooney when 252s are having trouble at 130K.   All those mods are nice, but they dont add up cumulatively.

[Bob_Belville]

Nobody is going to get 100K for a vintage mooney when 252s are having trouble at 130K.   All those mods are nice, but they dont add up cumulatively.

Byron, you're a smart guy. I'm sure you're right.

 

Why would anyone want a plane that looks and flies like new, has a useful load of 900#, cruises @ 155K on 9+ gph, has avionics more up to date than 99% of the Mooney fleet, and gets to park in the prime space @ Lakeland and Oshkosh? Silly me. 

 

When you get a chance, point me to any plane with an Aspen, GTN 750 and GDL 88 that changed hands for less than $100,000.

[jetdriven]

Byron, you're a smart guy. I'm sure you're right.

Why would anyone want a plane that looks and flies like new, has a useful load of 900#, cruises @ 155K on 9+ gph, has avionics more up to date than 99% of the Mooney fleet, and gets to park in the prime space @ Lakeland and Oshkosh? Silly me.

When you get a chance, point me to any plane with an Aspen, GTN 750 and GDL 88 that changed hands for less than $100,000.

I'd love to see any vintage Mooney that has changed hands anywhere near 100k regardless of equipment.

Airplanes that are over-improved sell for more than the others, but not twice as much. You can put an IO-550 and three aspens in it, but they only go so high.

here is a 1981 M20j with a 430W, fresh engine, and add 12K for the Aspen, in it for 103K, perhaps less if the seller wants to deal. Then trade the 430W and get a GTN-750 all in for 110K. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1981-MOONEY-M20J-201/1281689.htm

[BigTex]

Granted I'm not a big fan of the M20J, but give me Bob's plane any day of that J.  It's head and shoulders a better buy and aircraft in general.

[BigTex]

Valid point if your mission was needing to carry three on a regular basis... Mine's not.

[Bob_Belville]

Not if you're the one riding in the back seat. 

The 6 footer who shot this from the back seat of my E is ready to do that 3-1/2 hour leg again..

 

[Bob_Belville]

jetdriven wrote:

I'd love to see any vintage Mooney that has changed hands anywhere near 100k regardless of equipment.

 

I asked you first...

 

Point is there are few completely updated Es out there and we're not selling.

 

How's that old farmer story go? 

"Hey, mister, why are your watermelons $2 when the guy up the street is $1?"

"Why didn't you buy his?"

"He doesn't have any left."

"Well, when I ain't got none my price is $1.'

[Bob_Belville]

here is a 1981 M20j with a 430W, fresh engine, and add 12K for the Aspen, in it for 103K, perhaps less if the seller wants to deal. Then trade the 430W and get a GTN-750 all in for 110K. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1981-MOONEY-M20J-201/1281689.htm

Byron, It depends on what someone is looking for. Quite a few folks, like BigTex, prefer an E to a J. My E with manual gear, hand pump flaps, and manual speed brakes cost about $100 per month all in to maintain. 

 

M20Js, M20Ks, C310s, Aztecs have their place but you can't compare them to a C, E or F with a manual gear and a near impossible to duplicate combination of economy, performance and fun. 

[jetdriven]

Byron, It depends on what someone is looking for. Quite a few folks, like BigTex, prefer an E to a J. My E with manual gear, hand pump flaps, and manual speed brakes cost about $100 per month all in to maintain. 

 

M20Js, M20Ks, C310s, Aztecs have their place but you can't compare them to a C, E or F with a manual gear and a near impossible to duplicate combination of economy, performance and fun. 

Sure, and I agree. The M20E is nearly, if not as, fast as a J and simpler to maintain.  (Although my electric flaps have been trouble free while a friend of mine has spent 500$ on his manual flap pump and it still doesnt work right.)  However, nobody is going to pay over 100K for one, regardless of how well it is equipped.  So, regardless of what Jimmy G's valuation calculator says,  it wont bring 100K on the market.  Even with a turbine engine and a full glass panel, the buyers in that range look at other planes.

 

Regarding economy, performance, and fun.  The J will travel farther than a stock C, E, or F model due to the lower drag of the airplane. Performance in climb is similar, cruise is faster than a stock C or F.  I also agree the short body Mooneys are more sporty to fly than the J.

[Bob_Belville]

FWIW, I am very familiar with early C models. The J run LOP burns around 2 GPH less at the same speed. That is not insignificant. The better aerodynamics, fuel injected engine,12 extra gallons of fuel, higher gear and flap speeds, and the larger rear seat and baggage areas really put the J in a different league than the C. Not to mention the aesthetics. In fact, the J is as big of a step up from the C as the C is from my former highly speed modified Cherokee 180. No exaggeration.

The E gives you the ability to run LOP, which is a nice step in the right direction. The F makes up much of the rest.

I freely admit, though, that I would prefer manual gear and flap systems. I have replaced both limit switches in my flaps and I have also replaced my no back clutch spring in my gear actuator, probably to the tune of $1500 or so that wouldn't have been necessary in a Mooney with manual systems.

I have never noticed a "fun factor" advantage in either direction.

Jim

Jim, my E, and many others now, has been upgraded with 201 mods that gives it the same or better performance as the 201 without the expense associated with the electric gear and flaps. My IO360A1A is of course about the same engine and I have 1.5" ram air boost and a tuned Powerflow Systems exhaust that provides more MP above 8000'. I have O&N bladders (54.8 gallons) which is less than the J but @ 5.5 hours w/o reserve plenty of range for my personal bladder. (I might add O&N new 10 gallon add-ons. That would make my flights to Minuteman (6B6) no stop even with unfavorable winds.) 

 

I guess the only point I would concede is the 10" extra legroom in the back seat. I think my backseat in more roomy than Delta coach. 

[jetdriven]

I would agree, Bob.  An E with all the 201 mods is just a 201 with 2" less room in the front and 10" in the back.

[Bob_Belville]

I would agree, Bob.  An E with all the 201 mods is just a 201 with 2" less room in the front and 10" in the back.

If the J is the same as the F I think it's 2" in the luggage area and 10" in the main cabin which of course is rear seat leg room unless the front seat folks are short legged enough to move the seats forward.

 

And of course my short coupled E has a MGW of only 2575. Between the speed brakes, bladders, and one piece belly, etc. I lost 50 pounds of useful but I still have 900, enough for full fuel and 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 grandsons. I suppose that's about the same as a typical 201.