Buyer representation or agent?

[jmills]

Well, I did a search on the forum for various topics regarding buyer agents, but it came up blank. So I figured I would ask.

Being brand new to potential aircraft ownership, and knowing even less about Mooneys, I am interested in finding buyer representation and/or agent. Because I don't know much about the pitfalls of first time ownership, I think it is probably a wise up-front investment to hire someone that is skilled in buyer representation, in particular, one with specific knowledge of Mooneys. Being a lawyer, I am comfortable reading and discussing contract issues. However, I am not comfortable with the finer details of what to look for and more importantly what to avoid. Also, to be honest, I have no real grasp on aircraft valuation; at best I have a broad general grasp but nothing more. And that is a BAD place for any buyer, of anything, to be. Hence, yet another reason to search for a buyer agent as I begin my search for a Mooney (20F or if I'm lucky a J).

Is there someone, or some group/firm that any of you can recommend for such an endeavor?

As always, thanks for your input and advice!

[GeorgePerry]

The thread linked below talks about buyers agents. 

 

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=145

[jmills]

Quote: GeorgePerry

The thread linked below talks about buyers agents. 

 

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=145

[GeorgePerry]

Glad to help.  This forum is full of friendly knowledgeble folks who are more than happy to answer question and provide help. 

If your looking for a vintage mooney here's a link to another thread that you might find useful.  I'm an F owner...If you have any specific questions shoot me a PM and I'll do my best to steer you in the right direction.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=2&threadid=9

[Buster1]

I can help you with valuation.  I recommend joining AOPA in general, but they have a ton of buyer help and basics including their valuation tool.  Not bad for a couple $20s.  if you have a specific bird you are looking at, send me the info and I'd be happy to run it thru AOPA's Vref tool.

Additionally, I am in the same boat as you as a first time buyer.  I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about buying and Mooneys over the last 6+ months.  I think if you do some good research, and see what's out there, ask some questions, etc...you'll soon be able to feel comfortable with enough of the basics to make an educated first buy.

Good luck.

[Jeff_S]

When I was looking for my first plane (which turned out to be a Warrior) I investigated using a buyer's agent for the very same reasons JMills mentions in the original post. Being new to aircraft ownership I was willing to pay a few bucks to make sure I didn't get taken for a ride. But the ones I talked to were asking for about $7,000 as the agent fee, and I figured that for a $50+K airplane that was a pretty steep amount to pay. I just used the AOPA material and talked to a lot of folks to get comfortable before purchasing on my own from a Controller.com listing.

Another option is to use a dealer and I think in this thread and the other some of the better dealers in Mooneys have good reputations. I actually talked to Premier during this purchase process but they didn't have any inventory that interested me. Check your state tax laws to see if there is any advantage to purchasing directly from an owner rather than through a dealer. Some states don't charge sales tax if you purchase directly from an individual.

[DonMuncy]

Check the planes the "dealer" is offering. Very often, the dealer doesn't own the plane, but is brokering it. In that case, you will wind up buying directly from the previous owner (even though the broker handles the deal and gets paid by the seller). In that case, the tax implications are the same as if the broker was not involved.

Don. 

[carusoam]

I went the reputable dealer route.  Dealer owned the plane.  Used an MSC for pre-purchase.   I am sure there are lower cost ways of direct purchase, but this worked for me.  The pool of reputable dealers is small, but their overall selection is quite healthy.

There was significant value added by both the dealer and the PPI.

[Ned Gravel]

Jason:

I bought my E model five years ago.  Searched on my own, but each time a prospect looked good, I called in a reputable local shop to do a pre-buy. I started negotiating on eight aircraft in total.  I arranged for pre-buys at six locations in Canada and the US. We call these pre-purchase inspections (PPI) in Canada.  In all cases, the shop knew they were working for me and they all charged me about $500 each to do.

The first PPI was at my home field.  Two prop strikes in the log books and the last one did not have the documentation that supported any claim of being properly repaired. I let that one go.  Shop never even opened the cowl so they didn't charge me for the PPI.

The second PPI was done in Calgary, Alberta and the owner refused to accept the list of airworthiness items I sent him. I walked.

The third was done in Charlotte, NC and the owner was presented with a list worth about $17,000 to repair (all airworthiness issues).  He refused.  I walked.

The fourth was done in Joplin, MO and the longerons (steel cage members) were rusted.  The owner knew somebody, who knew somebody, who knew somebody who could fix it for one tenth the $12,000 quoted by the MSC.  I walked.

The fifth was done in Mobile, AL and this list was worth about $15,000.  I never heard back from the owner.  He walked.

The sixth was done at the MSC I currently use and the list of items to address totalled about $14,000.  This time the MSC owner and the seller's agent stepped in to convince the seller that he was going to lose the sale and pay for a whole pile of repairs on an aircraft he was trying to sell.  So he agreed.  I added another $6,000 of items from the annual that was conducted and I bought that aircraft.  As a result of that transaction, I have a friend who looks after my Mooney and a reputable agent I can work with if I need one.  the seller now has his new(er) J model maintained by the same shop.

I also put deposits on all of these aircraft and I only ever actually laid eyes on the first and the last.  Each PPI saved me $50,000.

Lessons learned? 

1.  OK to look yourself, but engage a reputable shop to work on your behalf.  MSC if possible and if they have a good reputation. A good shop is a far more important investment than a reputable buying agent.

2.  No aircraft is worth the negotiation of a price if the seller feels no responsibility for the list of airworthiness issues.

3.  Prospective Mooney buyers need to know a little bit about Mooneys before they go hunting.  More knowledge, better experience.  Where to learn?  Spend some time with a reputable shop owner, prefereably an MSC, preferably one who owns a Mooney, preferably one who is passionate about the brand.  They have all kinds of good advice and they prefer to offer it before you end up at their doorstep with some problem.

Just my opinion based on my own first time search for a Mooney.

 

[jmills]

Thanks for the info so far guys.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Your best "agent" is a Mooney Service Center for prebuy.  The ones I like especially are Don Maxwell Aviation, G-Force, LASAR, and Wilmar.

 

I recommend setting up a purchase where there is the following:

 

1) Aircraft Purchase Price

2) Prebuy/Annual inspection.  Basic labor for this to be paid by buyer.  If seller backs out, seller faces the prebuy cost.

3) Airworthiness squawks paid for by seller

4) Buyer pays for optional items.

 

This has served me well in the past.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Your best "agent" is a Mooney Service Center for prebuy.  The ones I like especially are Don Maxwell Aviation, G-Force, LASAR, and Wilmar.

[Tom_Veatch]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Your best "agent" is a Mooney Service Center for prebuy.  ...

[fantom]

Quote: Tom_Veatch

Is there a list readily available somewhere of MSCs by name and location? I hope to be on the buyer end of a transaction later on in the year and lining up a prebuy at a convenient MSC is one of the bullets.

[Tom_Veatch]

Quote: fantom

I trust joining MAPA is another one of your bullets.

 http://www.mooney.com/service-support/mooney-service-centers-3.html

[DaV8or]

Quote: edgargravel

 I arranged for pre-buys at six locations in Canada and the US. We call these pre-purchase inspections (PPI) in Canada.  In all cases, the shop knew they were working for me and they all charged me about $500 each to do.

[Jeff_S]

Most shops that are doing a pre-buy will NOT ground an airplane unless there is a monumental safety hazard. There is no "official" pre-buy inspection process and no specific criteria that the FAA will judge a mechanic on. If the airplane flew into the pre-buy with a current annual and all paperwork, in all but the most extreme conditions it will be able to fly out by either the seller or the buyer. The A/P doing a pre-buy may note in the write-up of any potential safety issues, which covers his/her derriere from a legal standpoint.  But unless the plane has specifically been submitted for an official 100-hour or annual inspection, whatever the mechanic finds is advisory only.

The trick is in how you structure the purchase and sale agreement to cover you, the buyer, in the event of finding something you don't like during the pre-buy. I always try to get the seller to agree to compensate at least some portion of the pre-buy expense (for example, the cost of the oil/filter change, which has tangible value to the seller) if they decide to pull out of the deal because they don't want to pay for necessary repairs. Then you know your risk limit is the cost of the inspection, minus whatever comp you've negotiated, if either you or the seller decides to walk away.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: DaV8or

Wow. I really shouldn't have read this post. In six days from now, I'll be in Texas starting my first pre buy. I really hope I don't have to find thousands of dollars of deal breakers. It does make one wonder about what constitutes "airworthy". Clearly the owners of the planes you inspected believed their aircraft to be safe and no doubt had current annuals and peices of paper that confirmed that. After the deal fell apart, they got back in their planes and flew away. Nobody grounded the plane. Does anybody have the authority to do so?

You can see how the sellers might feel swindled. Afterall, the shop says the plane isn't safe until fixed, the plane is in peices right in the middle of a repair station, the buyer is waiting to take this nightmare off his hands, why not just fix it? The shop owner gets a good chunk of work, the buyer gets an improved airplane and well, the seller gets to pay for it all. You can see why the sellers are less than enthusiastic about the deal.

If an airplane is knowingly unairworthy, how is it they fly away without repair? Who decides and by what standard? What does it really mean to be unairworthy? Is it fact or opinion? Is it enforceable? I really don't know the answers to these questions. I'd like to know because it may soon be me in this situation.

So, in the case of all the planes that you had inspected and turned up deficient, were they true safety issues? AD compliance issues or just items with a lot of wear that would need replacing or rebuilding soon? From your experience, it sounds like I should expect my 40 year old plane to turn up at least $10,000 worth of problems next week. I sure hope not.

[jmills]

Quote: edgargravel

[KSMooniac]

Tom, I'm in Wichita too and used Don Maxwell in Longview, TX for my prebuy 3 years ago for the plane I found here in town.  I'll be happy to help you in any way I can.

[Tom_Veatch]

Quote: KSMooniac

Tom, I'm in Wichita too and used Don Maxwell in Longview, TX for my prebuy 3 years ago for the plane I found here in town.  I'll be happy to help you in any way I can.

[KSMooniac]

Good luck on both fronts, Tom!  I'm not sure what your mission will be, but if it involves travel you can definitely sell SWMBO on the wonderful utility and efficiency of a J.    We can all go for a ride too if that will help the argument.

[donshapansky]

Tom, I have used Don Maxwell for 2 years now and have spent a ton getting my M20K up to the standards I want. Check out www.markhegg.com he will act on your behalf if you want a knowledgeable Mooney guy. There are a lot comments on his website about the quality of service he provides, he also can train you on the Mooney type.

Good Luck! 

[RJBrown]

 In the process of purchasing an airplane there are 2 ways of protecting yourself that I used. #1 is finding and using an aircraft sales contract that protects you the buyer. #2 is the use of a trusted shop, usually a MSC, to do a pre purchase inspection.

 A year ago January I had a contract to buy a TLS. The contract was written on a form that protected me. I chose to use the one on 1st Pryority Bank's website. http://www.1st-of-pryor.com/aircraft_purchase.htm One of the terms of this contract called for the airplane to be airworthy. If there were Airworthiness problems the seller was given the opportunity to take care of them. If the seller chose not to bring the plane to an airworthy condition they were responsible for the cost of the PPI.

The seller delivered the plane and the logbooks to U.S. Aviation in Denton Texas. I flew down to Texas to see the plane firsthand. There were many problems with the plane. The seller had owned the plane less than a year. He bought it with a "fresh" annual done by the sellers IA. An AD dated 2004 had never been done and the plane had been signed off improperly. One of the dangers in trusting a seller is the problem of a pencil whipped "paper airplane" annual. This plane had recieved more than 4 such annuals. With a 3 page list of discrepancies we started to re negotiate the deal. At this point the seller became upset at the position he found himself in. I am sure he was pissed at himself for the oversights he made when buying and at me for demanding that the plane be as represented IN THE CONTRACT. We were unable to come to an agreement and he was left to pay for the PPI.

The buyer eventually cooled down and had USA do an annual. The plane is still for sale today. If the seller had honored the contract I would have bought it.

The fine work done at USA pointed out the real condition of the aircraft. But it was the contract protected me from an airplane that had been misrepresented. A previous post talked of paying for multiple PPIs. With the protection of the right contract I only had to pay for one in the search for my current bird.