romair Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hello So I am going to upgrade my 89 M20 J from the original factory stack to GTN 750 and JPI 930. The KX 155 will go, together with the ADF. Couple of questions. First, should I keep my DME? Second, the install will be done by a local shop with a good reputation and with experience installing the GTN 750 and the JPI 930. Actually, the owner has a Mooney with the GTN and the JPI installed in it. I am willing to pay a slight premium for having the work done so close to home, but to be honest, this is the first time I am doing any avionics work so I am a bit clueless as to what is fair. I am including the quote as a picture file. For those of you who have the GTN 750 and/or the JPI 930 - does this appear to be a fair price? Thanks Stefan '89 M20J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hello So I am going to upgrade my 89 M20 J from the original factory stack to GTN 750 and JPI 930. The KX 155 will go, together with the ADF. Couple of questions. First, should I keep my DME? Second, the install will be done by a local shop with a good reputation and with experience installing the GTN 750 and the JPI 930. Actually, the owner has a Mooney with the GTN and the JPI installed in it. I am willing to pay a slight premium for having the work done so close to home, but to be honest, this is the first time I am doing any avionics work so I am a bit clueless as to what is fair. I am including the quote as a picture file. For those of you who have the GTN 750 and/or the JPI 930 - does this appear to be a fair price? Thanks Stefan '89 M20J I would get rid of the DME. The GTN can be issued in lieu of the DME. The price for the gtn seems to be in the right range. The jpi looks a little high, but it depends on your airplane and what is in there now. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Stefan, I had a new panel installed in my '66E last Nov/Dec. It included the GTN 750 and the JPI EDM 930 which I hardily recommend. I removed an ADF and a KNS80 which was a DME/RNAV. I would not think you'll have much use for the DME with the 750. I also added a Garmin GDL 88 to get (free) traffic and weather displayed on the 750. You might consider that option while you're at it. If your budget permits I also am very happy with the Aspen got to replace an old Narco HSI.  Pricing: Your shop is not discounting the units as much as I think is normal. As for the labor, your quote is also higher than mine though I don't know where you are and what the shop rates are. I'm in NC which is probably lower than CA, for example. My shop quoted 40 hours to "replace the KNS80 & a KY 97 COM with the GTN 750 including interfacing to the (new) Aspen and a new antennae." He quoted 36 hours for all the work involved in the 930. there is a long list of components involved in all the engine instrumentation.    Here's a pic of the 750 & 930. There are more @ my gallery.  I think you'll be happy with both the 750 and the JPI. I'm not sure whether you'll have the equivalent of the GPSS feature I get with the Aspen in between the 750 and the A/P. This is a tremendous feature reducing pilot workload.   1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/34183-5-16-2013-panel-with-ram-mount-696/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerohawk Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Labor is hight if you ask me. The 930 should not cost that much labor, its a very easy install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted June 7, 2013 Report Share Posted June 7, 2013 Like Bob, I have the GTN 750 (and GTN 650) with the GDL 88 for traffic, primarily, and a JPI 830. All great units. In my opinion, ditch the DME. I believe the JPI 930 can be "primary", where the 830 (somewhat smaller) is not. That might let you remove some now redundant instruments. To save panel space, consider the remote audio panel (now 3D), and the remote transponder using the GTN 750 to control those functions. I don't know where you are located, but if within easy flying distance of Scottsdale, I most highly recommend Executive Aircraft Maintenance (ask for Bill Forbes, the avionics manager). I found their prices very reasonable, and the workmanship was excellent. Best of all, they are great to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 . I believe the JPI 930 can be "primary", where the 830 (somewhat smaller) is not. That might let you remove some now redundant instruments. as Bennett wirits, the 930 is primary. I really like getting rid of the old six cluster which among other weaknesses brought oil and fuel into the cabin. The pilot scan is greatly simplified with lots of info in very few places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romair Posted June 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I'm in the DFW area - I'm thinking average prices for avionics installation. The quote also includes modifying/replacing the co-pilot panel in order to accomodate the avionics, as well as removal of the gauges on the pilot side that had the fuel indicators, oil/fuel pressure, CHT temp, etc. Maybe that's why it is somewhat more expensive? Again, I don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience of a local shop, just don't want them to make a living off of me I'm considering the GMA 350...I do like having a separate audio panel unit, and I think I will have the panel space for it. Any other eason other than panel space to go the GMA 35 instead? Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I replaced my old audio panel but I too had room for a panel mount and went with a less expensive ($1395) GMA 340. It's positioned right above the 750 and I am glad it is separate so I do not have to pull up a page in the 750 to listen to ATIS on COM2 for example.  The 36 hours ($2700) to install the 930 included all the instrument replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I'm in the DFW area - I'm thinking average prices for avionics installation. The quote also includes modifying/replacing the co-pilot panel in order to accomodate the avionics, as well as removal of the gauges on the pilot side that had the fuel indicators, oil/fuel pressure, CHT temp, etc. Maybe that's why it is somewhat more expensive? Again, I don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience of a local shop, just don't want them to make a living off of me I'm considering the GMA 350...I do like having a separate audio panel unit, and I think I will have the panel space for it. Any other eason other than panel space to go the GMA 35 instead? Stefan Keep in mind that unless they put the GMA35 in the avionics bay, it will still reside behind the panel on a tray. Also, what is your other radio? If you lose the 750, you lose the panel control. I believe they default it to the second radio, but you want to make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTex Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I have a GNS 430W and don't need my DME but call me old fashion but I still find myself using it all the time... If you have panel space, you might regret removing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romair Posted June 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Other radio is a KX 165, which will be linked to a VOR. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I flew with a pilot who had Aspens and a 430, nothing in the cockpit showed distance to the airport. Nothing. For that, DME worth keeping. Perhaps the GTN-750 shows distance to destination, you need it to plan your descent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Dawson Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I've had my GTN 750 with a JPI 830 since a year ago September and would recommend it to anyone. I had the DME removed at the same time since the 750 made it redundant. You can program the gtn to show distance to a waypoint, IAF, FAF, an airport or any number of options. I also have the GMA 35 and the GTX 35 and even though they work great and exactly as promised I would like to of had more information on the 750 screen rather then the audio and transponder info. Have you considered the JPI 900? Its also classed as a primary replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Byron, the 750 can show all kinds of stuff including distance to destination, eta to destination. I choose to show time and distance to w'point and destination on the map screen but these fields are selectable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Bob, is that leg distance to waypoint or DME distance? Reason I ask is because the large jets all show leg distance, IE, distance to all the waypoints in the flight plan first, and if there is a vector break in there (such as in a STAR), that distance goes blank. Get a shortcut to the marker and all of a sudden you are sky-high. DME distance to destination always shows how far you are, right now, to the DME station. Even the 747-400 still has dual ADF and DME for this reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Bob, just curious, having the GTN-750 why would you need an iPad on the copilot side? Not enough enchilada?  José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigOne Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I'm thinking that I bought my beautiful 68C with 2800TT, 550SMOH, paint 10 years old but always hangared, Garmin GPS IFR certified, Kx155, poor man's a/p, etc for only $1.5K more than the cost of this upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 The remote audio unit is generally installed in the otherwise wasted space in the GTN 750 rack mount - directly above the "guts" of the GTN 750. In the event of audio panel failure or the GTN 750, radio #2 automatically becomes the primary radio and that radio's volume control is functional. I like the audio panel controls as part of the GTN 750 display. The audio page is full screen when selected and the graphics are easy to use and understand - touch screen. Using the remote audio panel and remote transponder allowed me to have a GTN 650 mounted under the GTN 750, and still have room for an Aera 796 to be mounted in an AiGizmo panel mount. Sure, it may be overkill, but I find redundancy of information helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romair Posted June 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Lol AmigOne...it does burn a hole in the wallet for sure...that said, some people buy a Porche when a Mazda will do the job just as good since the speed limit is 70...I guess it is the same philosophy. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I just looked at some quotes I received for installed prices for the GTN. As Bob mentioned, the prices especially for the hardware are high. The price I was quoted for the GTN 750 was $14,200. When I did my JPI installation, I looked at the 930 and if I recall, the price was $5500 just for the unit. Another thing to consider, with Oshkosh just around the corner, I would expect to see some discounts and rebates coming out. I got a $750 rebate on my GTN 650 which brought it down to $8,700. The installation amount I was quoted for the GTN was $2,600. The $4,900, well, sounds pretty high, almost double mine. I went with the PS Engineering PMA8000BT. That unit was just under $1,800. The audio panel is a lot of wiring and that was $1,580 for labor. Another thing to consider is the GPSS converter for your autopilot. If you don't have one already, that should be something you will want. That was by far the best feature I had installed. Gave my AP a whole new capability. Imagine flying holding patterns -- who you have thunk... It was also the reason I went with the Aspens. They provided GPSS as well as replacing the second VOR head. With the Aspen HSI capability you can overlay your primary Nav CDI on top of a secondary or third source. So essentially you can fly an ILS with an RNAV overlay on the same display. You can then add the third RMI indicator on top for crossing radials if needed. Also, Bennett is correct about the location of the remote audio panel. It can be stashed on top of the 750. Let me know if you have any questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 Stefan - I just picked up something from your quote. What CDI or HSI would the 750 drive? It looks like the note on the second item is saying that you don't have a glide slope capable CDI. Can you list out the hardware you have in your plane or post a picture of your panel? The 750 will need to drive something. I am assuming your later model Mooney has an King HSI in it. Trying to figure out what the shop is doing with the Nav switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romair Posted June 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 The GTN was going to drive the HSI, and the King 165 will drive the second VOR. I was somewhat confused over the Nav switch as well, but that's how it was explained to me. I am attaching a picture of the panel. Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I see what they are doing Stefan. The Nav switch will allow you to move autopilot control over from the GTN to the KX165 or vice versa. The warning about the second CDI is telling you that if you switched your autopilot over to Nav 2 you will not have a glide slope control. In other words, your KX165 is capable of doing an ILS but your CDI doesn't have that function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 8, 2013 Report Share Posted June 8, 2013 I would also ask about GPSS autopilot functionality. The GTN is capable of sending out data to be used for GPSS. Are you familiar with how GPSS works? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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