Do you have an angle of attack indicator (poll)

[bnicolette]

It would help keep you alive a lot more than a shiny new paint job.

 

LOL!  Gotta agree with you there bud.

[bnicolette]

Are there any little airplane mfg's that have an AOA indicator as standard equipment?   If not, how about an add on option from the factory?  

 

It would seem easy enough to do and they could incorporate it right into the EFIS/Glass.

 

If they don't I wonder what the rationale is for not installing them?

[Alan Fox]

Are there any little airplane mfg's that have an AOA indicator as standard equipment?   If not, how about an add on option from the factory?  

 

It would seem easy enough to do and they could incorporate it right into the EFIS/Glass.

 

If they don't I wonder what the rationale is for not installing them?

The rationale is that a stall switch/horn , that is in almost every aircraft ever made , is an aoa indicator , it just doesn't have a snazzy gage.....

[201er]

The rationale is that a stall switch/horn , that is in almost every aircraft ever made , is an aoa indicator , it just doesn't have a snazzy gage.....

The problem with that is it only helps you when a stall is imminent. It doesn't teach or help you avoid getting there in the first place. The AOA indicator gives you that awareness long before the buzzer needs to come on. Stall warning doesn't help you fly Vx or 1.3Vso either.

[bnicolette]

 Stall warning doesn't help you fly Vx or 1.3Vso either.

 

Mike since you have the AOA can you put up some examples of what your speeds actually were on a given day (weight) for your Vx climb and also your Vso in comparison to the POH numbers?  I am curious as to what the differences are.

 

I'm also wondering about calibration?  So when you're doing stalls is your AOA "dead on" when it shows your going to stall and when the stall breaks?  So using that number you should be able to verify also that it is showing you an accurate 1.3?  Has it been that accurate?

 

How about in a turning stall?  When you are banking 30 degrees does it accurately show 1.3 as compared to when the stall actually breaks?

 

I am assuming that you probably haven't done any 45/60 degree bank turning stalls in the Mooney but if the straight and level ones and 30 degree bank were "dead on" with and without flaps then I would feel safe in that the 45/60 would be accurate also.

[201er]

Well you can get in with me and we'll find out. I have no idea how accurate the calibration is. However, from my flying experience I just feel that the AOA indication more closely matches my flight condition than the ASI.

[bnicolette]

Well you can get in with me and we'll find out. I have no idea how accurate the calibration is. However, from my flying experience I just feel that the AOA indication more closely matches my flight condition than the ASI.

 

Mike come on.  At least get out there and do the straight ahead stalls and see where the darn thing breaks at.  But yes, I will be more than happy to go out and do some with you.  No 45/60 for me though in the Mooney.

I am very curious to see how far off the numbers may be from the AOA and the POH.

[bnicolette]

Mike didn't I read a couple posts back with you quoting Peter and then talking about the precision of the AOA and knowing absolutely where you are in relation to the stall?  And now you're telling me that this precision you've been speaking about is based on the nerves in your ass? LOL!   That's just not cool.

[201er]

No, no. The AOA serves as the stall warning just the same. I've heard it going off during the stall portions of landings and such so I have a good sense that it is darn close to when the stall actually happens. I just haven't tested it with comparisons to the ASI. I'd like another set of eyes to do that. And when I was talking about the calibration, I was talking about for best angle of climb and such. However, I have found myself getting better VS by following the AOA than the ASI in the initial part of the climb. See my ASI lag response earlier.

[PTK]

The POH only gives you a one size fits all stall speed (not custom calculated for your aircraft and your airspeed instrument) for 0, 20, 40, and 60 degrees and only at gross weight. You're gonna tell me that you know exactly what 1.3Vso in a 27 degree bank is?

May I humbly suggest you take another look and review the Performance section of your POH Mike. Yours can't be that much different than mine.

 

I don't know "exactly" what 1.3Vso in a 27 degree bank is. It depends and, frankly, it's not that important to me. Do you?

 

What is important to me and I do know, is where I need to be for my weight, keep my banks in the pattern at 30 degrees max, and make darn sure I keep my turns coordinated.

 

Because I know if I do this I will not spin out of control. I'm not afraid of the stall. The real danger is being uncoordinated. Either too much or not enough rudder at the onset of the stall.

 

And funny thing is Mike, I don't even have an AOA indicator! 

[201er]

You should keep your turns coordinated period. And there does not need to be a restriction to 30 degree turns if you fly the right angle of attack. I don't know what 1.3Vso in a 27 degree bank is. But my AOA does and all I have to do is ensure it does not dip below that and I'm fine or add some speed if I increase bank to continue to maintain the appropriate angle of attack.

 

Knock yourself out:

[PTK]

Study this:

 

[201er]

Can't read it in that size. But it doesn't even matter. You're really going to be referring to that and interpolating the data when you are steepening up a turn? It's ridiculous. An AOA indicator takes all the math and guesswork out and simply shows your angle of attack. You don't have to know you weight, bank angle, cg, asi error, or airspeed. It just tells you if you're angle of attack is sufficient or not and which way to correct. You could have been a hair more modest with your paint job and covered the cost of installing an AOA and then some. The AOA is providing far more vital information than the IPAD! Proof is in the stats. See how many accidents due to getting lost, CFIT, flight into weather, mid airs vs how many stalls on takeoff/landing.

[Marauder]

Try this: You guys are too funny! I assume you folks are applying corrections for temperature, altitude, KCAS and instrument error you have uncovered. Not to mention extrapolation for conditions & factors that affect performance (your exact weight (not what your paperwork says you weigh empty), compensation if your plane is not 100% in rig and of course whether your plane is washed and WAXED).

[PTK]

Can't read it in that size. But it doesn't even matter. You're really going to be referring to that and interpolating the data when you are steepening up a turn? It's ridiculous. An AOA indicator takes all the math and guesswork out and simply shows your angle of attack. You don't have to know you weight, bank angle, cg, asi error, or airspeed. It just tells you if you're angle of attack is sufficient or not and which way to correct. You could have been a hair more modest with your paint job and covered the cost of installing an AOA and then some. The AOA is providing far more vital information than the IPAD! Proof is in the stats. See how many accidents due to getting lost, CFIT, flight into weather, mid airs vs how many stalls on takeoff/landing.

Sorry you can't read it, it's off of my iPhone. I'll send it to you if you want it.

 

Notice that it gives you both KIAS and KCAS.

 

I refer to it in my pre-flight planning, and yes extrapolating is sometimes necessary.

 

Sounds great! Who cares about weight and cg. Let's all run out and get an AOA indicator instead!

[M016576]

Sorry you can't read it, it's off of my iPhone. I'll send it to you if you want it.

Notice that it gives you both KIAS and KCAS.

I refer to it in my pre-flight planning, and yes extrapolating is sometimes necessary.

Sounds great! Who cares about weight and cg. Let's all run out and get an AOA indicator instead!

I'll leave you with this parting thought, as I've layed out repeatedly, from an aerodynamics standpoint, why an AoA indicator is a superior instrument for maneuvering and approaches than an Airspeed indicator. (How this can be denied is beyond rational thought IRT aerodynamics)

An AoA indicator is like a multi place engine monitor, while an ASI is like a single place ships gauge. The AoA indicator gives you the full picture of how your aircraft is performing at any given moment, weight, CG... And get this... Even if you don't know what your weight is, the AoA still gives you the truth data (and it's easier to use). The ASI can get the job done, but it leaves a lot of valuable information out, and confines you to a set of estimated/interpolated speeds and numbers. Think about how much more you "see" with a 4 or 6 place engine monitor. An AoA gauge is the same- just it displays reserve lift and stall margins instead....

[Smiles201]

If you depend on stall horn, and are getting slow in a right hand turn, right wing could stall before horn sounds?

[DonMuncy]

I have stayed out of this discussion, especially when it degraded almost to the point of "you are an idiot if you don't agree with me." 

But, it seems that I am so afraid of an unintended stall situation, that I invariably maneuver at some speed which I believe gives me a wide margin of safety. I think it would be helpful if I had a better idea of how much of a margin I have.

I know; if I was a better pilot, I wouldn't need that that assurance. If you are plenty confident, and don't think you need an AOA indicator; great. But I'm seriously considering installing one.

[bnicolette]

I have stayed out of this discussion, especially when it degraded almost to the point of "you are an idiot if you don't agree with me." 

 

 

I sure hope nothing I said came across this way guys!  If it was me then my apologies.  

[Bill_Carter]

I have been watching some videos that relate to this sort of thing. The video says to figure out your stall speed by doing power off stalls with each flap setting, gear down, and noting the stall speeds. Times that by 1.2 or 1.3 and that is your over-the-fence or over-the-numbers speed for each particular configuration. This way you are safely above your stall speed when landing at least.

I probably didn't hit this explanation square on the mark, but does this sound right? So, I suppose, an AOA might be helpful to use in conjunction with this method.

Please correct me if I am off my rocker here, I certainly do not want to be doing the wrong thing. I have not been able to test this yet obviously.

[201er]

I have stayed out of this discussion, especially when it degraded almost to the point of "you are an idiot if you don't agree with me." 

But, it seems that I am so afraid of an unintended stall situation, that I invariably maneuver at some speed which I believe gives me a wide margin of safety. I think it would be helpful if I had a better idea of how much of a margin I have.

I know; if I was a better pilot, I wouldn't need that that assurance. If you are plenty confident, and don't think you need an AOA indicator; great. But I'm seriously considering installing one.

 

Out of curiosity, could you share what those speeds are and how you derived them? I know I sound like an AOA salesperson. I really don't have a personal agenda in selling them. But there are 3 things I am passionately sold on from outstanding personal experiences: Mooney, Halo Headset, and Angle of Attack Indicator. Those are 3 things I could not do without so I passionately recommend them to others. I think that if others would try them, they would be as thrilled with them as I am myself. These 3 things really stand out above and beyond anything else based on how valuable they are.

 

 

I sure hope nothing I said came across this way guys!  If it was me then my apologies.  

Yup, it was totally you Brett. You're scaring all the moonyspacers away

[bnicolette]

The AOA doesn't just confirm that "the airplane is at the margin of its envelope, low, slow, dirty and banking." It is an analog instrument that moves as this condition is being created. If it is part of your instrument scan (which it should be if you have one and intend to use it) then you will see it go from good to bad to worse as you are increasing bank angle. You won't let yourself get "low, slow, dirty, and banking" because you will be aware when you have reached or begun to dip below 1.3Vso. On the other hand, without it, you have only to guess if you are at the right speed when you tighten up a base to final turn at 2689lbs, flaps wherever they are, and an increasing bank angle.

.

Mike why be at 1.3 in the pattern except on short final? AOA or not, just curious. Even the final should probably be 1.3 + ?? and then 1.3 crossing the proverbial fence.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[201er]

I want to make sure I'm over 1.3Vso in the turns. On the straight lines that's easy. But in a 30 degree bank with gear/half flaps, 1.3Vso is over 90knots. Base leg is usually about 90 knots (well above straight/level 1.3Vso) but if you're maintaining that speed through your base to final turn, depending on that bank angle and your weight, you may be dipping below 1.3Vso in the turn without realizing it. That's where the AOA presents you with vital information instantly.

[bnicolette]

I want to make sure I'm over 1.3Vso in the turns. On the straight lines that's easy. But in a 30 degree bank with gear/half flaps, 1.3Vso is over 90knots. Base leg is usually about 90 knots (well above straight/level 1.3Vso) but if you're maintaining that speed through your base to final turn, depending on that bank angle and your weight, you may be dipping below 1.3Vso in the turn without realizing it. That's where the AOA presents you with vital information instantly.

 

Mike I don't want to nit pick but I wanted to point this out so you don't have bad info.  Stall speed in a 30 degree bank with gear down and half flaps is 64 kias.  So 1.3 is 83 kias not 90+ knots as stated in your post.  You may be confusing it for mph?  So given that most probably fly a 90 knot base that is a 26 knot buffer at minimum since that figure is computed at gross weight.  Flying 90 knots on base to final will protect you up to a 60 degree bank but why would you bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern other than bad technique/poor planning?  

 

I'm sure it's on the forum here somewhere but what speeds are most flying the patter at?  I shoot for 100 downwind, 90 base, 80 established on final and then 65-70 (Knots) across the proverbial fence.  Is this pretty much what other folks are doing?  I don't see any need for going any slower around the pattern as she slows down quickly if need be?

[201er]

Brett, you're right. I must have grabbed the mph numbers by accident. However, for 60 degrees bank stall is listed at 83 knots (for gear down and half flaps). That would require 108kts to maintain 1.3Vso. Being down to 7 knots of margin and pulling back a little much or a gust of wind can be enough to turn that into a spin. I don't think most of us do a 108kts base to final turn in a tight pattern (heck that's almost max flaps speed).