Homeland Security strikes again

[AndyFromCB]

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2013/130516pilot-detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.html?CMP=ADV:1

 

This sounds exactly like what happen to me, in October 2011, if you guys remember.

 

My route was KLAX-KPUB-KCBF

[rockydoc]

Why don't you repost this under "Ramp Check."  There is a looooon thread (48 posts) on this topic.  It appears that most of our forum members don't understand that this type of abuse is growing.  Thanks.

[tomn]

Carefull here - you'll get the IRS and the FBI after you...

[KSMooniac]

This is infuriating.  I hope AOPA raises a stink, and publishes additional guidance on how to deal with these goons/thugs.  Their previous guidance on "regular" ramp checks is good.  I have nothing to hide, but I'm 95% sure I would not be able to keep my cool if confronted with similar abuse.

[AndyFromCB]

This is infuriating.  I hope AOPA raises a stink, and publishes additional guidance on how to deal with these goons/thugs.  Their previous guidance on "regular" ramp checks is good.  I have nothing to hide, but I'm 95% sure I would not be able to keep my cool if confronted with similar abuse.

All you can do is bite your tongue and not make any sudden movements. When this happend to me, first idiot told me go sit in my car. About 5 minutes later a second idiot flips out and tells me to get out. It's rather "clockwork orange".

 

Greatest piece of advice you'll ever hear. Normally he charges $800 an hour. Best line from the whole video: "Did you know it can be a federal offense to poses a lobster?"

 

[jrwilson]

Sometimes they're right though....

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130406/ARTICLES/130409633

 

Two-time Rohnert Park fugitive says panic led to Arkansas manhunt

Stupid Cirrus pilot trick

[rockydoc]

All you can do is bite your tongue and not make any sudden movements. When this happend to me, first idiot told me go sit in my car. About 5 minutes later a second idiot flips out and tells me to get out. It's rather "clockwork orange".

 

Greatest piece of advice you'll ever hear. Normally he charges $800 an hour. Best line from the whole video: "Did you know it can be a federal offense to poses a lobster?"

 

GREAT video.  Thanks for sharing.  If this doesn't make the point, nothing will!

[320KPH]

awesome post

[rockydoc]

Carefull here - you'll get the IRS and the FBI after you...

Yeah.  You got it.  We'll be put on Homeland Security's watch list.  They'll monitor key words in our emails.  Bad think about Homeland Security is that you don't have the right to have counsel present and no one will be told you're being held.  Now that's REALLY SCARY.

[Bennett]

Before 911 I was travelling in and out of the country frequently - Europe and Asia mostly, by

commercial airlines, and Mexico, Canada, and the Caribbean, as well as The BWIs by my Mooney. I don't

think I was on any formal "watch list",(no reason to be on such a list), but there were times when I reentered the US

after a Commercial Flight that customs would run my passport (many pages added for stamps and visas)

through their scanner, and then proceed to talk to me about some of my Mooney flights. Obviously they knew about my private aircraft flights, and that that data was in their system. At first I was

surprised by this, and later it sort of became routine. None of the Customs folk would ever tell me

why they were talking about private flights, nor would they give me any information as to why they were asking. This has not happened with respect to any of my more current trips to Asia (China, Japan,

Cambodia, Thailand) or Europe, including those countries which were once known as part of the Eastern

Block. I would guess that either the Feds are are now more inefficient, or that because of someone, or somehow, I've now been vetted as a "Good Guy". I would sure hope so after 17 years of military service as an Army Officer starting in the mid 1950s.

[AndyFromCB]

I love the police officer on that tape: "We don't do interrogations, we do interviews.". Ministry of Peace comes to mind, or the Department of Defense ( or for that matter, Education ;-)  My grandfather got very upset, in the college professor sense, when improper grammar or vocabulary was used to attempt to make a point. The man wrote letters to magazines, tv stations, etc. I never understood why, now, I get it. When words like "freedom" have long lost their meaning and instead have been replaced by mindless recitals of "The Pledge of Allegiance" (by the way, written by a card carrying commie), I realize what I've been looking for has long lost been lost. Gone, never to been seen again but then really, like the Yeti, never having have lived in the first place. Change ain't lookin' for friends. Change calls the tune we dance to.

[triple8s]

The DHS just bought about 2 billions rounds too! No wonder I cant get .22LR at the Walmart!

[jrwilson]

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2013/130516pilot-detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.html?CMP=ADV:1

 

 

 

Just an alternate viewpoint here, but a little skepticism might be in order on this story...   Especially in light of the other article I posted about another supposedly "Innocent pilot/businessman" who was being targeted by big brother.  In the other article, a Sonoma county pilot (also in a cirrus) was doing a business trip cross country, had landed in Arkansas and was contacted by local law enforcement at the request of Customs.  The pilot fled in his aircraft, because he "panicked" (not a normal response) and then landed on a dirt road in the country.  Law enforcement found him the next morning and he fled again into the woods (again, not normal).  Back story was this guy had been a fugitive for years about 15 years before due to him being a large weed farmer.  So in the other article, sure, maybe he was just a business man who flees at the sight of law enforcement, then crash lands on a road to avoid them, then flees again when they come later...Or maybe he is running drugs. 

 

In this story, not to judge by looks or anything, but Mr. Silverstein doesn't look like your typical investment banker, with the dreads and all.  Looks a little rasta to me.  And just because he says he is a "teatotaller" doesn't mean it is true, nor does saying you have a clean record make it true either.  While many people do use their private aircraft for cross-country business trips, I would hazard a guess it is unusual, especially because it is usually more expensive, unless you have a lot of intermediate stops which wouldn't/couldn't be served by airlines.  Plus, a private plane trip would be more fun, but could easily be used for running drugs too. 

 

The first time he was contacted by customs, it sounds  like he had weed on him. That is why they kept asking about it.  It is actually really easy to smell it and then the second time he was contacted, they had a dog with them.  Again, just because Mr. Silverstein says the dog alerted to oil and deice fluid, doesn't mean it is true.  Marijuana doesn't smell like oil or deice, it is pretty distinctive and I'm sure a drug dog can differentiate.   It was probably personal use and they weren't that interested once they didn't find a large quantity. 

 

As for customs/law enforcement being "Goons/thugs", that sounds like a bit of anti-authority paranoia.  Just people doing their jobs, which they're paid to do.  Sure, you may have the odd bad experience, but for the most part, those "goons" are very polite and professional and knowledgeable on the applicable state and federal laws.  While I agree the Texas (I think it was Texas) glider incident was blown way out of proportion by local law enforcement, I think there may be more to this incident with Mr. Silverstein than the one sided account he is presenting.  AOPA isn't journalism, they are presenting from a aviation centric/lobbyist position, as they should, but before you decide law enforcement is evil and equate it to Nazi Germany, at least be a bit open minded and determine if there was more to the detention/search than Mr. Silverstein is presenting.

[wiguy]

 Not sure if I want a new mode 'S' transponder either.

[AndyFromCB]

Just an alternate viewpoint here, but a little skepticism might be in order on this story...   Especially in light of the other article I posted about another supposedly "Innocent pilot/businessman" who was being targeted by big brother.  In the other article, a Sonoma county pilot (also in a cirrus) was doing a business trip cross country, had landed in Arkansas and was contacted by local law enforcement at the request of Customs.  The pilot fled in his aircraft, because he "panicked" (not a normal response) and then landed on a dirt road in the country.  Law enforcement found him the next morning and he fled again into the woods (again, not normal).  Back story was this guy had been a fugitive for years about 15 years before due to him being a large weed farmer.  So in the other article, sure, maybe he was just a business man who flees at the sight of law enforcement, then crash lands on a road to avoid them, then flees again when they come later...Or maybe he is running drugs. 

 

In this story, not to judge by looks or anything, but Mr. Silverstein doesn't look like your typical investment banker, with the dreads and all.  Looks a little rasta to me.  And just because he says he is a "teatotaller" doesn't mean it is true, nor does saying you have a clean record make it true either.  While many people do use their private aircraft for cross-country business trips, I would hazard a guess it is unusual, especially because it is usually more expensive, unless you have a lot of intermediate stops which wouldn't/couldn't be served by airlines.  Plus, a private plane trip would be more fun, but could easily be used for running drugs too. 

 

The first time he was contacted by customs, it sounds  like he had weed on him. That is why they kept asking about it.  It is actually really easy to smell it and then the second time he was contacted, they had a dog with them.  Again, just because Mr. Silverstein says the dog alerted to oil and deice fluid, doesn't mean it is true.  Marijuana doesn't smell like oil or deice, it is pretty distinctive and I'm sure a drug dog can differentiate.   It was probably personal use and they weren't that interested once they didn't find a large quantity. 

 

As for customs/law enforcement being "Goons/thugs", that sounds like a bit of anti-authority paranoia.  Just people doing their jobs, which they're paid to do.  Sure, you may have the odd bad experience, but for the most part, those "goons" are very polite and professional and knowledgeable on the applicable state and federal laws.  While I agree the Texas (I think it was Texas) glider incident was blown way out of proportion by local law enforcement, I think there may be more to this incident with Mr. Silverstein than the one sided account he is presenting.  AOPA isn't journalism, they are presenting from a aviation centric/lobbyist position, as they should, but before you decide law enforcement is evil and equate it to Nazi Germany, at least be a bit open minded and determine if there was more to the detention/search than Mr. Silverstein is presenting.

 

"doesn't look like your typical investment banker, with the dreads and all". And I sure don't look like I can afford an airplane, in my $2 costco TShirt, and I'm pretty positive based on your looks alone, one could not arrive easiliy arrive at electrical activity between your ears, but I'm fairly positive it will not be setting off any stormscopes.

 

Drug dogs are wrong almost 70% of the time according to quite a few studies. In one study, only 44% of the time the dog allerted to presence of drugs said drugs were actually located during the subseqent search. The rest of the time, the dog smelled bacon, or #2 from McD, or maybe "rasta" hair product, or more than likely large presence of melanin in the occupants of the vehicle.

 

"at least be a bit open minded and determine if there was more to the detention/search than Mr. Silverstein is presenting." Why should I be? He is obviously out and not in custody. There obviously wasn't any more to this. If he had even one joint on him, that airplane would become the property of DEA quicker than you can yell "get on the ground with your hands behind your back". Why are his statements less believable than that of professional perjurers. Watch the video above, the cop openly admits to it.

 

"sure, you may have the odd bad experience, but for the most part, those "goons" are very polite and professional and knowledgeable on the applicable state and federal laws." In general, law enforcement does not attract the brighest thinkers and when it does, they will not be offered employment in the first place. The courts have ruled over and over again that the policy of only hiring from an IQ pool below a certain number is not discrimination because police deparments have shown rational basis for such policy. The paramilitary style training law enforcement receive these days does not allow for nuance.

 

Last but not least, I have lived thru an identical encounter two years ago, and the officers involved were neither pleasant, polite, professional or knowledgeable about anything other than location of their arsehole which for some strange reason was installed where his mouth would normally be as the first words out of the orfice were: "what the fuck is going on here?" and then it deteriorated from there. And while I don't claim to be a teetoler by any means, my criminal record is clean as is my arrest record. I think TKS being mentioned in the above story is funny, as the individual with displaced orfices could not stop focusing on the "do not drill, do not use screws" placecard below my back seat where the TKS tank is located. The second officer on the scene was a real class act, too. His parents must have been fairly poor, as he did not come equipped with volume control. I wonder what other options the poor stork had to carry all the way back to the spawns'r'us.

 

4 cops in Omaha just got fired last month for excessive force, felony evidence tempering, etc, etc. 3 others were placed on leave. 1 lucky fellow was reassigned. Only because a citizen had a camera and recorded the incident. Just like an average drunk driver drives about 1000 times intoxicated before their first DUI arrest, do you honestly believe that this was an isolated incident? No, they have done this 1000 times before and now finally got caught red handed. This is pervesive from your local PD all the way to the IRS and FBI, doesn't matter who's sitting in the whitehouse. Meeting arrest and conviction quotas are the only thing that matters.

 

Pointing out that law enforcement is inherently evil and fighting it every step of the way is the only way of ensuring that we don't become like Nazi Germany since you, not I, decided to bring that up. A cop is a cop and he/she doesn't care whether it will be $100 fine, 10 years in prison, life in prison for the suspect. Like you said, just people doing their jobs, which they're getting paid to do. And I assure you, should the congress tomorrow pass stating "After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of coffee, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited." and set the penalty at life imprisonment, your otherwise "pleasant, polite, professional or knowledgeable" peace officer would have no qualms arresting you for having your morning cup of joe.

 

ACLU will be getting another giant check from me this year, like they do every year. This is nothing new. This has been happening since we first established what we like to proudlly refer to as "civilized society". Just as its their job to toss as many of us into jails, its our job to make theirs as hard as possible. Nothing to do with tin foil hats or general hate of the government because as many of this board will attest to, I'm quite a liberal that believes in the need for goverment. However, I also hold the constitution dear and believe strongly believe in checks and balances. And from my perspective, this whole war on drugs and terrorism is about as effective at producing corruption amongs the ruling  and contempt among the ruled as the prohibition was in the 30s while doing nothing to reduce either drugs or terrorism.

[jrwilson]

Someone's got a lot of misplaced rage, and wants to get personal. Well, since this is just an Internet message board, I won't take it personal and just shake my head and laugh. And like JimR, just block him.

[Oscar Avalle]

Someone's got a lot of misplaced rage, and wants to get personal. Well, since this is just an Internet message board, I won't take it personal and just shake my head and laugh. And like JimR, just block him.

agree Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[flyboy0681]

I still don't know what to do in a similar situation. Do we have any rights to protest such a search? If not, can it only be performed by the FAA?

 

 

To answer jrwilson's observation, a Google search revealed that Silverstein is a gay, Orthodox Jew and is a hugely successful New York City realtor.

[Z W]

The 4th amendment protects you, even from DHS or the FAA. You can always refuse to consent to a search of your person or property. It is their burden to prove they can do it without your consent if they proceed.

[Dale]

Searches on the high seas and at borders or at areas where international travel occurs are afforded less constitutional protection than in other areas. In other words, your consent to the search in these types of areas is not needed. Think of it when you are clearing customs when you renter the country. They don't need your permission to search your belongings or your plane. I spent a number of years in the 1980s as a prosecutor and later, for a while, a defense attorney in federal and state court. The best advice is exactly what was presented in the video, keep quiet. I also never had a case where a defendant or a client was able help themselves by speaking with the authorities.

On the other hand there was an interesting case some years ago where the police where boarding buses and doing searches looking for drugs being moved northward. The police would enter the bus and surround 1 person and ask them for permission to search their bags. If they got a no for an answer they would threaten to get a search warrant. Very bad and in violation of the constitution and a number of cases, one in particular called U.S. v. Hammock. One particular justice at the Florida Appellate level at the 4th DCA had a couple of appellate cases come before his panel and he was not particularly keen on chastising the police for this type of behavior until one day he was taking his daughter to the bus station for her trip back to Tallahassee. He entered the bus to help his daughter with her luggage and sat with her for a moment to say goodbye when the police entered the bus. Guess whose luggage they requested to search first. Yes, you guessed it, the luggage the justice brought on board for his daughter. The justice refused the police request to search his daughters luggage and that is when they threatened the justice with getting a search warrant. Wrong person to threaten. The justice got a real life lesson (his appellate opinions in these matters seemed to have changed rather quickly after that) and the police also got a real life lesson. These searches stopped shortly thereafter after some nasty legal opinions came down from our district courts of appeal and supreme court on these types of searches by the police. But border and high seas searches just don't offer the same type of constitutional protection.

[1964-M20E]

Funny how when it others rights and not yours it is ok for the rights to be suspended, forgotten about or ignored.  I just hope we speak up for ourselves and others before there is no one remaining to speak up for us. 

[fantom]

Not to worry. That's why we have a free, objective and unfettered press guarding our rights

[Z W]

I would think DHS would have trouble establishing it was a border search when your flight did not cross any international borders.

[chrisk]

I would think DHS would have trouble establishing it was a border search when your flight did not cross any international borders.

 

DHS will try to pervert the system to their benefit.   They will of course model it on the internal boarder check points that currently stop folks that have not even left the country.   And for those who don't know about the internal check points, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_Interior_Checkpoints  The best course is to tell them they don't have permission, record everything, and then sue afterwards if they proceed.

[flyboy0681]

The best advice is exactly what was presented in the video, keep quiet. I also never had a case where a defendant or a client was able help themselves by speaking with the authorities.

 

The message here has been loud and clear, don't say anything and refuse the search. But what happens when they cuff you and take you downtown to the interrogation - sorry - interview room. Does one insist on speaking to an attorney? When they say "where are you flying to?" does a pilot respond "I want to speak to an attorney", when they say "where have you flown in the last three days?" does a pilot respond "I want to speak to an attorney"? Can the interviewee make any unrelated smalltalk or must they button their lips? Also, how long can they deny you access to an attorney?