4 bounced landings in a row

[KFIGfrenchy45]

Well, I have to disagree that speed is the issue.  Ground speed maybe, but airspeed no.  I can land my 231 at 90 in gusty crosswinds.  There are typically two things that cause a bounce, and I will add a controversial third.  First, the pilot fails to ease the nose up on landing and the plane hits flat or nose first.  That guarantees a bounce and a porpoise.  Second, and maybe a bigger factor with the later models with heavier engines, is the the pilot's failure to hold the nose back at the moment of touchdown.  The common reaction is to let the yoke move forward at the moment of touchdown.  That creates a bounce in which the mains hit first, and then the nose levers down and hits, and if hard enough you are in the air again and porpoising.  You need to land on the mains only.  If you land on the mains only, it is possible to have a small bounce, but it will always settle down quickly rather than porpoising, and it is the porpoising that creates prop strikes.  If anything, I add a little extra back pressure at that moment when the mains touch to be sure the nose wheel stays off the ground.

 

The third and controversial cause of bounces is the POH and flawed teaching.  Unless you are doing a calm wind landing or a short field landing, there is no good reason to do as we are taught and use full flaps.  In my aircraft, it makes the plane way too light on its feet and any excuse to go back in the air and it will do just that.  I land with takeoff (half) flaps most of the time, in calm or short field conditions with full flaps, and in gusty crosswind conditions no flaps.  Traditionalists go ahead and rag on me all you want, it is the way to land my aircraft. 

 

My perspective is perhaps part of the reason for my feelings on this.  I live in the midwest where we are nearly always landing in gusty crosswind or headwind conditions.  Calm or steady wind landings are not the norm.  I would say 10% of the time I land no flaps in strong winds, 10% full flaps for a short field or calm winds, and the other 80% takeoff flaps and 85 knots short final, with the airspeed decaying to about 75 at the numbers. 

 

It is possible to save a bounced landing.  Add a small amount of power and keep the nose up, then let the aircraft settle back down on the mains only.  It should go without saying that you need to insure that you have sufficient runway to do this, but a Mooney when handled properly will land in a surprisingly small length. 

 

So my diagnosis is that you are landing too flat, either on the nose or on three wheels.  It is odd, but I think everyone goes through spates where they just are not seeing the landing properly.  Make a little more effort to raise the nose when you are within a few feet of the runway, and if it bounces a little on the mains but you have kept the nose off the ground all will be good.

I agree 100% with your post. With one passanger and full tank, it was hard for me to keep the nose up even with full back trim so I put a 20lbs sand bag in the luggage compartment. Helps a lot to keep back pressure until the nose settle on its own. After a few landing practices, the sand bag can go.

[SpamPilot]

It has been six weeks since my original post and I have clocked another 30 hours (awesome plane!).  I had practiced landings with my instructor shortly after that post and it was a total anticlimax.  My landings were boringly good.  So I still don't have any solid conclusions about my original post.  Nevertheless, I have learned a lot over the intervening flight hours, including:

 

- I find it much easier to land the plane when it is heavy.  Both the tendency to float and the tendency to bounce are reduced considerably (I believe these are related but distinct issues).  Having one passenger makes a noticeable difference.  Three passengers and the plane sticks nicely on landing.  It feels like there is a significant reduction in suspension recoil when landing heavy.

 

- AOA control needs to be very precise in the flare.  A hair too much yoke backpressure will cause the plane to leap into the air again.  Compared to my old Cherokee, the yoke motions are one half to one quarter what they were.  With the aircraft heavy, it is more forgiving.  When light, it's a very fine line.

 

- Even in the landing configuration (I use full flaps), the aircraft still gives up speed very reluctantly.  Getting weight on the wheels after touchdown remains tricky, even though I'm dumping the flaps.  I am getting better at anticipating this, but I have to let the plane roll out a lot farther than I am used to before I can start applying the brakes.

 

- Compared to the Cherokee, I find I have to be zealous about stepping down my altitude and speed on final.  If my pattern speed or altitude are too high before turning final, it's too late.  If I'm not down to 90 MPH as I reach short final, it's too late.  If I'm above 85 MPH over the fence, it's too late.  If I'm not at 80 MPH over the numbers, it's too late.  That's a bit exaggerated, of course, but when I fail to fly by these rules, the quality of my landings suffers immediately.  I can't cover up flawed technique and salvage awkward landings like I could in the Cherokee.

 

- For short fields, I am working on changing my aim point from the numbers to the edge of the runway, or even well into the grass.

 

- I knew the plane flared lower than the Cherokee, so I focused on getting the sight picture similar to what I see while taxiing as I touched down.  The mental leap I made recently was not to even *begin* the flare until it seemed like I was about to auger in.  Again, an exaggeration, but it helped me reorient myself towards flaring *into* the correct sight picture, not flaring first and then letting the plane settle into the correct sight picture.

 

I haven't had any bounced landings since my first post, though I haven't flown that light, either.  I have had a few minor floaters, but no go-arounds.  There hasn't been any one thing to work on, it was simply a process of making small adjustments to *all* of the issues and getting more consistent across the board.

 

Oh, and one more thing I learned.  If I don't fly more than once a week, all my landing senses get dull.  If I don't fly for two weeks, I'm back to relearning everything.

 

[RocketAviator]

It has been six weeks since my original post and I have clocked another 30 hours (awesome plane!).  I had practiced landings with my instructor shortly after that post and it was a total anticlimax.  My landings were boringly good.  So I still don't have any solid conclusions about my original post.  Nevertheless, I have learned a lot over the intervening flight hours, including:

 

- I find it much easier to land the plane when it is heavy.  Both the tendency to float and the tendency to bounce are reduced considerably (I believe these are related but distinct issues).  Having one passenger makes a noticeable difference.  Three passengers and the plane sticks nicely on landing.  It feels like there is a significant reduction in suspension recoil when landing heavy.

 

- AOA control needs to be very precise in the flare.  A hair too much yoke backpressure will cause the plane to leap into the air again.  Compared to my old Cherokee, the yoke motions are one half to one quarter what they were.  With the aircraft heavy, it is more forgiving.  When light, it's a very fine line.

 

- Even in the landing configuration (I use full flaps), the aircraft still gives up speed very reluctantly.  Getting weight on the wheels after touchdown remains tricky, even though I'm dumping the flaps.  I am getting better at anticipating this, but I have to let the plane roll out a lot farther than I am used to before I can start applying the brakes.

 

- Compared to the Cherokee, I find I have to be zealous about stepping down my altitude and speed on final.  If my pattern speed or altitude are too high before turning final, it's too late.  If I'm not down to 90 MPH as I reach short final, it's too late.  If I'm above 85 MPH over the fence, it's too late.  If I'm not at 80 MPH over the numbers, it's too late.  That's a bit exaggerated, of course, but when I fail to fly by these rules, the quality of my landings suffers immediately.  I can't cover up flawed technique and salvage awkward landings like I could in the Cherokee.

 

- For short fields, I am working on changing my aim point from the numbers to the edge of the runway, or even well into the grass.

 

- I knew the plane flared lower than the Cherokee, so I focused on getting the sight picture similar to what I see while taxiing as I touched down.  The mental leap I made recently was not to even *begin* the flare until it seemed like I was about to auger in.  Again, an exaggeration, but it helped me reorient myself towards flaring *into* the correct sight picture, not flaring first and then letting the plane settle into the correct sight picture.

 

I haven't had any bounced landings since my first post, though I haven't flown that light, either.  I have had a few minor floaters, but no go-arounds.  There hasn't been any one thing to work on, it was simply a process of making small adjustments to *all* of the issues and getting more consistent across the board.

 

Oh, and one more thing I learned.  If I don't fly more than once a week, all my landing senses get dull.  If I don't fly for two weeks, I'm back to relearning everything.

 

HERE Here SpamPilot! I currently have two similar (planes in your story not that the airplanes are similar) airplanes a fixed gear Turbo Saratoga and now most recently the Mooney 231 / 301 Rocket and I can attest to exactly what you are stating in my case too.  One issue I have is when I fly one on a given day and then the next day or so fly the other... kicks my tail if I don't pay close attention when going from the Saratoga to the Mooney!  While I have only about 38 hrs in my Mooney and over 700 in the Saratoga, flying frequency is the most beneficial activity I have found on maintaining my landing proficiency and at a factor of many times more important on the Mooney side of equation!

 

My first 10 hours in the Mooney were miserable, I found myself saying what did you do!!!  Did you forget how to land an airplane, after just landing the Saratoga to test fly the Mooney, then thinking ok I just to to practice once or twice like I did on the Saratoga and then I will have this thing whipped... Well I am sure you already know who got whipped!!

 

Then it just seemed to come (after about 10 hours of instruction & 25 or so landings!!!).  Also on the advice of my instructor stating "you need to get away from this you are too intense and trying too hard".... to my reply "how can one try too hard  darn it!!!"

 

In the last two weeks I have had 3 cross country night flights.  The night before my first night flight I practiced landing the Mooney from dusk to well after 10:30 that night 16 landings in one day / night.... was $, time and effort well spent in my book.  Last night when I landed with my wife and two grand-kids at about 10:40pm , my wife who never says much about my flying stated "you should fly at night more often your landings are better at night than in the daylight...! ouch!

 

Fly safe,

Rocket On!

[craigsteffen]

To the original poster:
 
I just found this post. 
 
I have about the same number of hours as you have.  I had a problem landing for a while a few years ago after I spooked myself with a bad landing (accidentally landed a club C-172 with a slight gusty tail wind).  I ended up doing some pretty craptastic landings, bouncing my way down the runway on the mains.
 
What I finally figured out was that I was approaching at too high an airspeed because I didn't like the feel of the airplane at a good approach speed.  I finally forced myself to configure the airplane at decent speed (but level) in the middle of the downwind, so that at the beginning of decent I was just changing decent angle but staying at the same airspeed.  When I forced myself to do that, I realized I hated how the yoke felt at that speed, but that's the correct feeling for the approach. 
 
If you're at the correct airspeed and your flare is high enough, even if you drop the airplane onto the runway a bit, unless you hit a massive gust of wind on the nose, you're going so slow there's not enough lift to haul you back into the air.  If you touch down a bit hard and you leave the ground, then you touched down too fast.
 
One (bad) habit I've gotten into a couple of times in flying is if you fly the airplane carefully, you can touch down at a higher-than-correct speed and not flare enough, and make a very nice smooth landing.  This is a useful technique when it's a gusty day and you really do want to touch touch below the minimum possible speed just in case you get an unfavorable gust of wind.  HOWEVER, if you make this a habit, and you don't flare JUST right, it will bite you because if you do get a bit of a bounce, the airplane is still at flying speed and you'll bounce up quite a bit.  This was my problem a few years ago and something like this might be happening to you. 
 
If I were you, first I'd find out if your stall warning works at all.  Test it on the ground by flipping it with your finger.  Do a few landings with an instructor and see if during that you can hold the airplane off the ground to a slow enough speed so that it starts squealing at you.  If everything is working properly, you definitely should be able to make it go off during a landing. 
 
Oh--whatever your flap setting, I assume you're pulling the throttle ALL THE WAY to idle when you cross the threshold?  As in not just most of the way out, but as far as it will come?  If your engine is still adding thrust, that's going to make any other landing problems worse. 
 
Aside from that, I suspect that you're just letting your speed get too high and touching down at too high a speed.  My advice would be to go flying on a still, cool morning and go do some landings with just you on a long runway (at least 6000 feet if you can get it).  Do a normal approach, aim for just over the threshold, but then when you think you're about to settle, pull back just a bit on the yoke, and try really hard to not let the airplane drop.  To make the stall horn go, you sometimes really have to haul back on the yoke, but try to do that.  See how far down the runway you can keep the airplane off the ground.  This may expand your comfortable mental landing envelope and help your flare technique. 
 

It has been six weeks since my original post and I have clocked another 30 hours (awesome plane!). 

Yes, it is, isn't it? :-D
 

- AOA control needs to be very precise in the flare.  A hair too much yoke backpressure will cause the plane to leap into the air again.  Compared to my old Cherokee, the yoke motions are one half to one quarter what they were.  With the aircraft heavy, it is more forgiving.  When light, it's a very fine line.

Yep, sounds like you're touching down too fast.
 

Getting weight on the wheels after touchdown remains tricky, even though I'm dumping the flaps.  I am getting better at anticipating this, but I have to let the plane roll out a lot farther than I am used to before I can start applying the brakes.

To me, this all points to touching down too fast.
 

If my pattern speed or altitude are too high before turning final, it's too late.  If I'm not down to 90 MPH as I reach short final, it's too late.  If I'm above 85 MPH over the fence, it's too late.  If I'm not at 80 MPH over the numbers, it's too late.  That's a bit exaggerated, of course, but when I fail to fly by these rules, the quality of my landings suffers immediately.  I can't cover up flawed technique and salvage awkward landings like I could in the Cherokee.

Yes, all that's true. I try to get trimmed for 90 mph when beginning decent on downwind and 85 to 80 over the fence. When do you chop the throttle completely?
 

Craig Steffen

[robert7467]

For me, at first it was landing with flaps, as soon as I started my approach with no flaps, they all became greasers, and I was able to solo. I then started introducing flaps, a notch at a time, and it's not an issue, and now I don't even know the difference. My advice is probally bad advice but it worked for me. With no flaps I increased approach speed to 85.

[robert7467]

Once again, I am sure others on here will attest, don't take my 2 cents as advise. Best recommendation is to fly it by the numbers in the POH.

[N1026F]

...you don't land a Mooney; you let it stop flying very close to the ground. Bounce happens when you try to force it to the ground prematurely. Too fast and you will float. Lots of flaps make you feel like the float lasts forever. In most cases, it actually results in a shorter roll. Whatever you do, don't get into the habit of messing with the flaps until you get clear of the runway. 

[OR75]

ideal case: the stall warning goes when your are about 5 a 10 ft above the ground , keep still and let the wheels touch the ground rather than landind it ( by pushing onnthe yoke). if anything you may need to pull.

if you may be running out pf runway,it means than your approach speed is too high

difficulty in landing a mooney us the last half a mile , especially as you try to manage around the yellow arc on the tach

[OR75]

That is a continuous operation limitation. Disregard entirely in the pattern and concentrate on other things.

Jim

maybe it is, but i had rather not spend anytime in that range the way things shake

i am not one of those who call his plane "she" but i do try to care for it

[craigsteffen]

maybe it is, but i had rather not spend anytime in that range the way things shake

i am not one of those who call his plane "she" but i do try to care for it

 

"Shake"?  You shouldn't feel shaking at any rpm, except maybe a little as the engine stops when you shut it off.

 

The vibrations on the yellow or red arc on the rpm gauge denote places where there's a crankshaft/propellor torsional vibration, but you can't feel it.  If your engine vibrates there, then your prop is out of balance. 

 

Craig Steffen

[scottfromiowa]

maybe it is, but i had rather not spend anytime in that range the way things shake

i am not one of those who call his plane "she" but i do try to care for it

are you serious with this reply or joking? i am going with joking and giving benefit of doubt here...

[scottfromiowa]

jim stop abusing her...

[OR75]

it does vibrate

[Marauder]

it does vibrate

 

I have an operational limit between 2100 and 2350 on my F model with the IO-360 A1A. It is very difficult for me not to be in that range when I am slowing down on downwind going into the pattern. I do not note any vibration being in that range (nothing that I can feel in the cockpit). If you have a noticeable vibration and/or shake, something is going on. 

[Stefanovm]

...you don't land a Mooney; you let it stop flying very close to the ground. Bounce happens when you try to force it to the ground prematurely. Too fast and you will float. Lots of flaps make you feel like the float lasts forever. In most cases, it actually results in a shorter roll. Whatever you do, don't get into the habit of messing with the flaps until you get clear of the runway. 

I agree! I have 300+ in my E and probably close to that in landings, it happened to me today. I lost focus on where the ground was and was late in keeping the nose up. The wife said not bad, not a squeaker, but I could probably count landing as two for the one stop. Speed was right, but if a Mooney touches the ground before a Mooney is ready to stop flying, keep flying you haven't landed yet. I always use full flaps unless practicing no or partial flap landings, at least 15% of them.

[bloghill]

I agree 100% with your post. With one passanger and full tank, it was hard for me to keep the nose up even with full back trim so I put a 20lbs sand bag in the luggage compartment. Helps a lot to keep back pressure until the nose settle on its own. After a few landing practices, the sand bag can go.

 

Hey!!! You're the guy who bought my plane!    ... from AirMods ... Hope you're enjoying it.

[bloghill]

I agree 100% with your post. With one passanger and full tank, it was hard for me to keep the nose up even with full back trim so I put a 20lbs sand bag in the luggage compartment. Helps a lot to keep back pressure until the nose settle on its own. After a few landing practices, the sand bag can go.

 

It's amazing to me that people have naturally discovered: full flaps aren't necessary.  Approach/Take-off is just fine.  (especially when flying an IFR approach, keeping them at APRCH setting is one less thing to worry about) ... then ... fly by the numbers.  If your flaps have a minor asymetrical deployment, your AP can adjust it.

 

On a M20F, 2350 (bottom of green) and 100 on downwind, flaps, gear, 90 on base, 80 on final, 75 short final.  (For winds, keep in some extra speed.)  If you're ahead of the plane and flying a good traffic pattern, throttle will fine tune your descent to the runway environment.  Field made? Reduce your power and flare before touchdown.  MAINS FIRST ALWAYS (no 3 point landings!)  ... when stall speed meets 0 altitude, the landin's soft and intentional.

 

I've landed N9378V on all types of fields... from 1950 feet (Reigle PA) to Washington-Dulles and Logan.

 

Crosswinds are the same thing, with the exception of choreographing the crosswind component.  Don't let that change your pattern technique.  (You might skip the 75 short final, though.)

[MARZ]

Round out - hold level for a bit and start to pull back the yoke - keep pulling in an attempt to keep the nose wheel from landing - the mains will always hit first skip to about the 2 minute mark

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lS81PJdmao

[pinerunner]

Just one thought to add. I think our Mooneys are more prone to ground effect than just about any other plane out there. The speed and attitude that has me settling nicely from 5 feet up holds me off the runway at one or two feet up. That speed has to bleed away to finish the touchdown. I can imagine folks used to high wing planes or low wing with longer landing gear subconsciously expecting the same sequence and timing to hold with the Mooney and easing off on the back pressure while still a foot in the air. 

[pinerunner]

I'm the same way with mine. Can you really feel her shake when in the "no continuous operation" band? I've only flown two Mooneys, a C and my J, but on both the only way to tell that you are operating in the band is by looking at the tach. I'd feel differently too, I'm sure, if it were otherwise.

Jim

I don't feel a shake there with my E model. The Hartzell people explained to me that there is a harmonic oscillation in the prop itself in our powerful four bangers.  For landings though I don't worry about it since the power is low.

[rbridges]

I have an operational limit between 2100 and 2350 on my F model with the IO-360 A1A. It is very difficult for me not to be in that range when I am slowing down on downwind going into the pattern. I do not note any vibration being in that range (nothing that I can feel in the cockpit). If you have a noticeable vibration and/or shake, something is going on. 

 

I have the same operational limits.  I read about it, and I believe it says "continuous", but the definition of that is somewhat vague.  I can't avoid that range when I'm going through the pattern.  I'm guessing they don't want you in that RPM range while cruising.

[pinerunner]

I have the same operational limits.  I read about it, and I believe it says "continuous", but the definition of that is somewhat vague.  I can't avoid that range when I'm going through the pattern.  I'm guessing they don't want you in that RPM range while cruising.

I have this limit as well with my E. In fact, with my upgraded, no-AD, prop the limitation extends down to 2000 RPM (I called the folks at Hartzell to ask about this). I cut myself some slack on this for landing, however since the power is at the lowest possible setting for the RPM. The limit is imposed because of a harmonic oscillation at those RPM that is of concern in the higher powered IO-360. While I guess I could drop the RPM down to 1900 and use extra MP as needed for landing (I may do this in the winter to help keep the temperatures up) I like the simplicity of dropping the power until comes out of governance and then treating it like a fixed-pitch plane with the prop set at max RPM, all ready for go-around if that should be needed. 

 

Dave

[WardHolbrook]

Over the past 47 years I've made over 12,000 landings. I think that I've finally discovered the secret to making good landings, every time, in any airplane. At first, I figured that it had to do with being properly configured and flying a stabilized approach at precisely the proper airspeed, but obviously that wasn't it. I then worked up a theory that involved planetary alignment and moon phases. I was getting closer. It finally all came together once I figured out how to hold my mouth. So here it is - the key to perfect landings every time...

 

You have hold your mouth just right, the planets have to be in proper alignment and the moon has to be in the proper phase, additionally, you need to be properly configured, fly a nice smooth stabilized on speed approach.

 

If you get a greaser other than when you're doing all of that you're just lucky.

[aaronk25]

I have the same operational limits. I read about it, and I believe it says "continuous", but the definition of that is somewhat vague. I can't avoid that range when I'm going through the pattern. I'm guessing they don't want you in that RPM range while cruising. I have this limit as well with my E. In fact, with my upgraded, no-AD, prop the limitation extends down to 2000 RPM (I called the folks at Hartzell to ask about this). I cut myself some slack on this for landing, however since the power is at the lowest possible setting for the RPM. The limit is imposed because of a harmonic oscillation at those RPM that is of concern in the higher powered IO-360. While I guess I could drop the RPM down to 1900 and use extra MP as needed for landing (I may do this in the winter to help keep the temperatures up) I like the simplicity of dropping the power until comes out of governance and then treating it like a fixed-pitch plane with the prop set at max RPM, all ready for go-around if that should be needed. Dave

I can't get down below 2250 or for sure under 2100rpm even in cruise or I notice the vibration starting to set in that is very pronounced at 1900rpm regardless of MP. I just think there is some harmonic/ torsional twisting that happens in these high out put 4 bangers. It's not there in the 6 cylinders but it makes sense only having 4 pistons pushing on the crank vs high output 6 cylinders.

[Shadrach]

On April 17, 2013 at 11:41 AM, SpamPilot said:

Surely there must be many dozens of threads on this topic. But I'm new to the forum, and searches on "landing technique" or even just "landing" result in no hits.

 

In my short (250 hours) flying career to date, I have only had one bounced landing that resulted in a go-around. Now 20 hours into having a Mooney M20F, including 15 dual received, with nary a problem other than getting the aircraft slowed down from altitude, I get four bounced landings/go-arounds in a row.

 

I had previously read all the advice I could find on landing Mooneys. I am well aware that speed control is essential. Wind was calm, the runway was plenty long enough, the plane was light (me and less than half fuel). The first three times I came in over the numbers at the recommended 80 MPH/70 knots (yes, I was paying close attention to airspeed). I had a nicely controlled sink rate, low power, full flaps, and full nose up trim, flared, brought power to idle, held the nose off as the plane slowed, and... boink! The plane dropped, but only by a matter of inches. In my Cherokee, the struts would have dissipated the energy of such a small drop, but the rubber discs of the Mooney sprung the plane back into the air. The bounce was small enough that I felt comfortable letting the plane settle back to the runway, but on the second touch it boinked again and I was out of there. On the last attempt, I figured I was light enough that I could come in over the numbers at 75 MPH. The plane boinked once, I let it settle, it just barely boinked a second time, so I risked letting it settle a third time (please do not follow this example), it boinked again and I could tell a porpoise was starting, so I got the heck out of there.

 

The airstrip was new to me in this plane (though I have landed a Cherokee there many times before) and is known to have a few undulations in the surface. Flying light in the Mooney was also new to me. At no time did the stall horn go off.

 

I think the most likely explanation is that I still don't have the sight picture quite right. I definitely don't have the feel for setting the plane down gently after a small initial bounce the way I would in a Cherokee. I have already scheduled more time with my instructor. Would love to hear words of advice (encouragement?) from others on the forum...

 

Where did you get the impression that you should cross the numbers at 80MPH?

 

Let's say your a 180lbs and you have a tad under half tanks (190lbs). In my airplane (just did a new W&B and we're at 1051lbs useful) that would put the aircraft's weight ~ 2070lbs. At that weight with full flaps and gear down your stall speed is ~54 MPH. If you're over the numbers at a 1.5 x Vso than a bounce is far more likely than a landing. Someone gave you a some bum advice... 80 mph would work out OK at gross, but is still a tad fast IMO over the numbers.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Shadrach